So for the past several years, I've been talking about how Shadows in Flight was going to be the final book that wraps up both the Shadow series (Bean and his family) and the Speaker series (Ender, Valentine, Jane, and the folks on Lusitania, plus the Descolada planet).
We've just announced Shadows in Flight! Huzzah!
No. It's not that book.
Here's what happened. The Amazon people approached me about doing a Kindle-only project that was multi-media - it used the capabilities of the Kindle to change reading order, etc. But as we started talking about numbers, they said that the only way we could justify the amount of money we were asking for was if the project were a new story in the Ender series.
That got me thinking about holes in the series - places where there was something really cool to talk about. Stories that WEREN'T replays of anything I'd ever written before. (I can't see any point in writing the same book twice. I know - I wrote Ender's Shadow - but it's not the same book, in my opinion, even if a lot of the same events are depicted.)
I came up with one that I absolutely loved. The trouble was, it was a story about Bean and his children during their voyage, BEFORE the events in the planned Shadows in Flight. And there was no way I could give that to Amazon as a Kindle-only project. Tom Doherty at TOR is the publisher of the Ender series, and I'm not going to take those books to anybody else.
So I contacted Beth Meacham and proposed a combination of things. I told her the story (as I then envisioned it) and suggested that I wanted to do a multi-platform multimedia book (MMB). Not a movie, not a comic, not an audiobook, not a powerpoint filmstrip, not even an illustrated book. New territory.
She came back to me with the fact that Tom was looking to break a logjam in the publishing industry. The prices of hardcovers and paperbacks have risen to a point where (a) ebooks are siphoning away a lot of sales, especially since Amazon is trying to force prices down to where publishers literally cannot make a profit without sacrificing quality (i.e., eliminating editing and proofreading, as with books self-published on Kindle); and (b) a lot of people in these hard economic times are looking at hardcovers and saying, no, sorry, I can buy several days' groceries for that price.
A new price point suggests a new length. Novels average between 80,000 and 110,000 words. What if you had leaner novels around 50,000 words? Robert B. Parker did it all the time, and nobody said, "That's not a novel! I was cheated!"
The key was, it had to feel like a novel, but it was a shorter read, and it COST LESS so it wasn't such a shock in the bookstore.
This may seem to be going against the trend of the Mammoth Fantasy Series, where each book is about the length of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate. But the truth is, books sell at all lengths, depending on whether the story is strong.
Beth and I realized that my story was exactly right for both MMB and short-novel treatment. Tom Doherty agreed. So we made the contracts accordingly.
Nick Greenwood, one of the most popular artists for IGMS, also lives in my hometown and his style exactly suited what I was going to need. So Hatrack River contracted with him to create, not just finished art, but concept art, including floorplans for the two spaceships in the story, which I then used as I was writing the book. This was enormously helpful because I don't think visually, and he does, so the story was enriched because I could actually SEE the places where people were going. (I may start doing this on more projects - talk things over with a great illustrator and write with some illustrations already in place. I don't need them to draw me people - I need them to visualize places and creatures and objects. You should see the unbelievably cool alien spaceship he created for me! Oh, wait - you WILL!)
We called this project "Shadows Alive." But then, as I started writing it, I realized: This story takes place entirely on spaceships. The title "Shadows in Flight" fits it perfectly. While "Shadows Alive" is a much better title for that final wrap-it-all-up book I've been planning for years.
So I called Beth and suggested a title swap. Fortunately, I did this JUST before the deadline and so we were able to make the change without confusing any of the marketing and bookselling.
The only people who might be confused are ... well, YOU. Because I've been saying for years that Bean dies in chapter 1 of Shadows in Flight. But this isn't that book. Though now that I've written it, I don't know how I imagined I was ever going to write that final book without having written this one first!
Anyway, here comes Shadows in Flight. We're going to put chapter 1 in the August issue of IGMS and chapter 2 in the October issue, for subscribers only, I'm afraid - but since there are only ten chapters in the whole novel (long chapters - the novel is about 54,000 words), that amounts to about a fifth of the book. Sort of a bonus for IGMS subscribers, because we really do want that excellent story-centered, fully-illustrated magazine to become self-supporting someday. We'll also have some of Nick's concept art in those two issues.
And what can I say? This is one of the strongest, most emotional, most science-fictional novels I've ever written. Think of it as Rendezvous with Rama meets Childhood's End. No, don't think of it that way at all. It is itself, and I'm proud of it, and I think you'll enjoy it. And we still have "Shadows Alive" to look forward to - and after this book, you'll see what it means to say that Bean's descendants will perhaps be the ones to deal with the Descoladores - whoever they turn out to be. (No, they are NOT Bean's descendants themselves. They are definitely NOT human.)
I thought you might appreciate knowing the whole story behind having a book with this title show up under these circumstances.
The novel comes out right after Thanksgiving, though the official pub date is not till January. I'm not sure what "publication date" even means anymore, but there it is. The MMB will come out on its own schedule, but we're going to try to have Kindle and Nook versions out ASAP. HOWEVER: There will be Kindle and Nook ebooks of Shadows in Flight at the same time as the book - those are NOT the MMB. The MMB is a very different experience. Lots of the same text, but many elements (including illustrations) that are NOT in the print book or the ebook. We'll try to make the labeling clear, so that if you don't see clear notices on a Kindle or Nook item called Shadows in Flight that this is the MMB, then it's just an ebook, the same text you'd get in print, no extras.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Could another poster here help me understand...I am a bit confused...the "MMB" is different then the print book and the ebook? So the full goodness of the MMB is Kindle only? OSC mentions a Kindle only project...I'm unclear.
Posted by stone_maiden (Member # 4071) on :
I think what OSC meant was:
1. paper novel is coming out 2. multi-media e-book (MMB) with extras is coming out on kindle 3. regular ebook without extras on Kindle and Nook platforms
Hope that helps!
Posted by stone_maiden (Member # 4071) on :
On a separate note, YES! I am so excited about the book coming out. My kindle broke, though, so paper version for me!
The good thing about real books is that if you step on it, it won't crack.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thanks maiden...*sigh* I don't have a kindle...no nifty extras for me.
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
The MMB will not be for Kindle only. We're hoping for many platforms. But the idea started with Kindle, that's all.
Posted by Verloren (Member # 9771) on :
There is a Kindle reader for the PC. I'm not sure of the differences, if any, from the actual Kindle, but that may be an option for those who don't have a Kindle.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thanks for the clarification kacard...looking forward to it!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Awesome news, I'm very excited.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
*Does a dance*
We need some SA smilies...
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
I am now slightly less excited than i was when i saw the release announcement on the home page, but I'm still gonna buy it.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Yay!
And good times were had by all. Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
I'm really excited to hear about this! So we can be reading this around Thanksgiving?
Posted by Steve_G (Member # 10101) on :
So when you say Kindle only, does that also include the Kindle Reader for Windows, Android and IOS?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:The novel comes out right after Thanksgiving, though the official pub date is not till January. I'm not sure what "publication date" even means anymore, but there it is. The MMB will come out on its own schedule...
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I'll probably just buy it hardcover. I like the fact that I have the entire series in good old-fashioned book format.
Still, the MMB would be nice...
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Hoorah! Hoorah!
Posted by Enthusiast (Member # 12605) on :
After re-discovering a love of books about 7 years ago an English teacher friend of my wife's gave me a copy of Ender's Game. I read the entire series plus the Shadow series. I am very much looking forward to reading this latest installment. Thank you so much for your wonderful work.
Posted by Zevlag (Member # 1405) on :
This is wonderful. I am greatly looking forward to this.
I wonder if ARC's of a MMB would be considered beta's...
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Wow. Know what's weird? No amount of promotional materials make me as excited as reading the excitement of OSC for his own book.
Can't wait.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Not weird at all. Also, I agree. Posted by chmcke01 (Member # 12603) on :
So, Shadows in Flight should be out around Thanksgiving, what about Shadows Alive? I am very much looking forward to them both, but I am much more interested in reading Shadows Alive.
Posted by TurtleBoy (Member # 12327) on :
Holy God. I am so pumped. Cannot wait. Now all we need is news on the Film adaptation of Enders Games/Shadow.
If that does in fact happen, it better be done right, I would hate to see one of the greatest SciFi series of all time get bad report because the movie doesent work.
Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
I'm very surprised I'm the first to post this.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
I really think OSC should one day, when he's facing his own mortality (or has nothing better to do, the equivalent of Graff sitting around making tea) go back and re-write the entire saga so it intertwines together perfectly.
Not just the annoying little details (like Ferreira being a villain in SP and then a collaborator in SotG without any reference to how or why he regained everyone's trust back) but the big things, like when we're in Ender's "mind" and hear his "thoughts" in all the Speaker books and there's no reference to things that clearly affected his past deeply. For one thing, how the whole business of gene splicing comes up and Ender never once thinks of Bean and his dilemma.
I know the reasons for these inconsistencies in the real world. OSC never planned this enormous behemoth that has become the Enderverse. It's not like the Potter books, or even the Dark Tower series that, while long, had some structural idea from beginning to end. The Ender books tell many more stories, and in a way, have grown much more organically than those "planned" epics (although I'm certain neither Rowling nor King would say their epics were that planned out, at least they knew they were going to write sequels leading to an end. Mr. Card had no idea when writing Speaker that anything like Exile or Shadow would even exist!).
Epic is a big word, I know, but I would call the Ender books epic, in their own right. And I love them for what they are, and I know many King fans who hate him for going back and editing his original work to fit better with his final story.
Also, I love OSC's idea that we can think of them as different accounts of the same events, and that often historians contradict each other with nonfiction, so contradictions in the fiction only added to the believability, not took away from it.
There is one big problem though. What works in nonfiction does so because nobody (or most serious people) don't write nonfiction from the point of view of the inside of the mind of the character. They do not convey his thoughts, his memories, his wishes, the way Mr. Card does so well.
What an arrogant thing for me to say, what I think Mr. Card should do one day. Yet, I keep that first sentence because that's how it poured out of my heart after listening to Ender in Exile (OSC's blog gave me the idea to try audiobooks in the first place) completely in a 24 hour period. Somewhere deep I feel I'm owed something from Mr. Card because he shaped my childhood so thoroughly, yet I know in my rational mind that I'm the one who owes him. It was through a friend I made at hatrack that I met the woman I've been living with for the past two years, for example. But that's not what I mean, what I mean is how it's shaped how I think, how I analyze, and sometimes how I write. By no means the greatest influence in my life, but not a small one either.
So on the off chance that you're reading this Mr. Card (I started the message with OSC and then realized you're Wiggin to me), thank you. And I mean my suggestion, my own private wishing of what you could do, or would want to do, one day. Revisit the entire saga, make it a whole again from the organic (beautiful) mess it has become. Think of it like gardening, not re-writing. There I go again, telling you how you should think of it, what you should do.
All I meant to say was, thank you.
And while I've got your attention, I realized something very interesting while listening to Ender in Exile. I've been reading your blog (about movies, books, everyday life stuff, along with your Demosthenes essays) for a few years now. I began to realize how your own every day life affected what you wrote. You watch high school (and all kinds of) plays, you put a play on the ship in Exile. I remember from your foreword in Ender's Game how you spoke of incorporating things you'd been reading about the Civil War and how Lusitania was brazilian in descent because you'd spent time there as a young adult. I even think the mayans making a cameo in Exile might have something to do with all that research you did for Pastwatch getting a little recycled, and because you'd come to love those people too and wanted them as part of your story. It's different when you say that something influenced you in a foreword and then to actually "catch" it myself, from various other things I know about you through your writings. But I know I can easily fall prey to catching false things, connections that you never intended, thought of, or that you had already connected to something else entirely. What's interesting isn't what I found out about YOU, all that may be wrong and I'm likely never to meet you so, who cares? What's interesting is what I found in myself. That paralyzing fear that putting too much of myself in a story will weaken it, will make it too one sided. Yet…you pull it off. And I shouldn't fear it. I am who I am, I'll have the biases I have. I'll be as limited as I am, because I can't ask any more of myself. Maybe that can work. So, about eleven or twelve years after I picked up a novel by you, I'm still learning a bit about courage and kindness through your work. And a little here or there about writing.
Lastly, I apologize to the other readers on the forum. Yes, I am aware this is way too long. Yes, I am aware it has strayed off topic. Yes, I am aware Mr. Card will almost certainly not read it. And yes, admins are welcome to delete it as they see fit. I will not in any way question that decision, because this should've probably been its own thread and I mistakenly thought I could contain myself to writing something short and to the point and then found a wealth of emotion I hadn't expected. Can you tell I've spent 13 something hours listening to Ender in Exile from one day to the next? I don't post this on its own thread because I don't think it'd be interesting enough to other readers to merit it, and because I do secretly hope Mr. Card might eye this behemoth while looking for real advice or comments on his next, fairly awesome looking, project.
I'm sure any contributions will be more to the point of the thread at hand. Again, I apologize in advance if anybody finds this disrespectful.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Wow, that looked a lot longer in the tiny box I had to type it in. Not such a behemoth after all. Go figure.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I'm not trying to nitpick, but Stephen King's Dark Tower series was almost entirely freewritten. He actually wrote each book without an overall ending in mind, which is kind of funny because the ending he came up with made a lot of his fans pretty upset. He even apologized for it.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Actually, I'm pretty sure the last three books were thought out as a whole (more or less) before he wrote them. I'm not saying any of those sagas, or any saga at all, can be completely structured and thought out detail to detail until the end. I'm merely saying King at least had seven books in mind when he started writing and knew sequels would follow. He only writes one book that takes place in a time before any of the other ones (Wizard and Glass) and he's just now exercising Card's idea of going back to previous stories and inserting a new one between them (with The Wind Through the Keyhole, though I'm aware Card didn't invent this practice, it is what's started this whole problem in the first place).
SPOILER ALERT!!!! SPOILERS AHEAD!!!! STOP READING FOR SPOILERS TO THE DARK TOWER!!!
In fact, the only reason I mention outlines at all in reference to the Dark Tower books is because he himself says over and over again how he had outlines for those books in Song of Susannah and the Dark Tower (remember how he makes himself a character in the book). He makes it a big point to mention how he hardly ever uses outlines, how he used them for the dark Tower precisely because it was so enormous and how he often deviated greatly from them (but he still HAD them, as opposed to Card never even thinking the other books would exist).
If you read the Dark Tower again Jeff, you'll notice that towards the end, after Jake and Eddie die, that he mourns for them and can't explain their deaths because "they're in all his outlines, to be with Roland at the end". Not quoting verbatim, but that's the gist. I'm not saying King wrote the whole thing from a particular structure, I'm saying he HAD that structure to begin with, he was at least aware of the problem. Not like Card at all. And at least the last three books carry a story arc and elements that are clearly thought to go from book five to book seven. King himself says that any book is DOA if you don't give it room to grow on its own, that there's no way to write a whole book based solely on "rules" or previously thought out structures. But there's a difference between that kind of free writing (or Rowling's, where she more or less had thought of the end) and not even KNOWING you're going to write the sandwich books in between.
Besides, like I said above, I love the original Speaker series. It's a wonderful set of books on their own right, their own series. They do not, however, really tie in with the books from the Shadow series or Ender in Exile, not because of some minor contradiction here or there (Ferreira, *cough* Ferreira) but because the characters learn things and grow in certain ways that they do not carry into the Speaker series (Ender and Valentine I mean, everyone else is dead by then).
So, what I'm saying is one day, when Card literally has nothing else to do, that he revisit the entire series to make it internally coherent. Not CHANGE it, mind you, simply, make an alternate version. I think it can co-exist with all the previous versions that are already excellent stories (like the original chapter 15 of Ender's Game, the original short story that spawned the book, etc. co-exist with everything else). I don't think he'll do it though, because it would mean retouching perfectly good work for the sake of "details". And it would mean that he's not going to write anything more to the Enderverse, because you can only wrap everything up when it's all done. So I'll just think of the Speaker books as happening on an alternate timeline, because I can't conceive the events of Xenocide and Children of the Mind without Ender once thinking "super smart, genetically enhanced kids? Like Bean!" And because his vision of Bean in Ender's Game (inside his own head!) varies greatly from his vision of Bean in Ender in Exile, simply because Bean grew in importance in the story but we never actually saw him grow in importance in Ender's eyes. Not to mention the whole Chapter 15 thing, which Card has addressed. The only thing that kind grinds at me is how Card will write Shadows Alive and HAVE to bridge Ender in Exile (which is really a Shadow book sequel) with the existing Speaker stories. I trust Card to be a good enough storyteller to pull it off though, just by relying on story, if not believable characters that connect from one book to the next. In my head, it'll be another alternateverse boook, and I don't think it'll take away the pleasure from it one bit.
Posted by Rodger Brown (Member # 11476) on :
Wow, I checked off the interwebs for a while and this is what I get when I come back. Great news and Shadows Alive is still anticipated.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: I'm not trying to nitpick, but Stephen King's Dark Tower series was almost entirely freewritten. He actually wrote each book without an overall ending in mind, which is kind of funny because the ending he came up with made a lot of his fans pretty upset. He even apologized for it.
Really? I thought he was proud of the ending.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
He probably is, but I remember when the book came out, he said something along the lines of, I know a lot of people are going to be mad about this ending, but this is just the way the story unfolded and it made the most sense to me.
He also wrote in the last book that if you enjoyed the story up to this point, you should consider stopping right then, because you might not like the ending.
Posted by richd (Member # 12520) on :
I didn't like how the book was ending even before I read SK's disclaimer. The actual ending was an expected disappointment. (now there's an oxymoron)
Posted by Kelly1101 (Member # 12562) on :
quote:Originally posted by salcedocine: I really think OSC should one day, when he's facing his own mortality (or has nothing better to do, the equivalent of Graff sitting around making tea) go back and re-write the entire saga so it intertwines together perfectly.
Not just the annoying little details (like Ferreira being a villain in SP and then a collaborator in SotG without any reference to how or why he regained everyone's trust back) but the big things, like when we're in Ender's "mind" and hear his "thoughts" in all the Speaker books and there's no reference to things that clearly affected his past deeply. For one thing, how the whole business of gene splicing comes up and Ender never once thinks of Bean and his dilemma.
I know the reasons for these inconsistencies in the real world. OSC never planned this enormous behemoth that has become the Enderverse. It's not like the Potter books, or even the Dark Tower series that, while long, had some structural idea from beginning to end. The Ender books tell many more stories, and in a way, have grown much more organically than those "planned" epics (although I'm certain neither Rowling nor King would say their epics were that planned out, at least they knew they were going to write sequels leading to an end. Mr. Card had no idea when writing Speaker that anything like Exile or Shadow would even exist!).
Epic is a big word, I know, but I would call the Ender books epic, in their own right. And I love them for what they are, and I know many King fans who hate him for going back and editing his original work to fit better with his final story.
Also, I love OSC's idea that we can think of them as different accounts of the same events, and that often historians contradict each other with nonfiction, so contradictions in the fiction only added to the believability, not took away from it.
There is one big problem though. What works in nonfiction does so because nobody (or most serious people) don't write nonfiction from the point of view of the inside of the mind of the character. They do not convey his thoughts, his memories, his wishes, the way Mr. Card does so well.
What an arrogant thing for me to say, what I think Mr. Card should do one day. Yet, I keep that first sentence because that's how it poured out of my heart after listening to Ender in Exile (OSC's blog gave me the idea to try audiobooks in the first place) completely in a 24 hour period. Somewhere deep I feel I'm owed something from Mr. Card because he shaped my childhood so thoroughly, yet I know in my rational mind that I'm the one who owes him. It was through a friend I made at hatrack that I met the woman I've been living with for the past two years, for example. But that's not what I mean, what I mean is how it's shaped how I think, how I analyze, and sometimes how I write. By no means the greatest influence in my life, but not a small one either.
So on the off chance that you're reading this Mr. Card (I started the message with OSC and then realized you're Wiggin to me), thank you. And I mean my suggestion, my own private wishing of what you could do, or would want to do, one day. Revisit the entire saga, make it a whole again from the organic (beautiful) mess it has become. Think of it like gardening, not re-writing. There I go again, telling you how you should think of it, what you should do.
All I meant to say was, thank you.
And while I've got your attention, I realized something very interesting while listening to Ender in Exile. I've been reading your blog (about movies, books, everyday life stuff, along with your Demosthenes essays) for a few years now. I began to realize how your own every day life affected what you wrote. You watch high school (and all kinds of) plays, you put a play on the ship in Exile. I remember from your foreword in Ender's Game how you spoke of incorporating things you'd been reading about the Civil War and how Lusitania was brazilian in descent because you'd spent time there as a young adult. I even think the mayans making a cameo in Exile might have something to do with all that research you did for Pastwatch getting a little recycled, and because you'd come to love those people too and wanted them as part of your story. It's different when you say that something influenced you in a foreword and then to actually "catch" it myself, from various other things I know about you through your writings. But I know I can easily fall prey to catching false things, connections that you never intended, thought of, or that you had already connected to something else entirely. What's interesting isn't what I found out about YOU, all that may be wrong and I'm likely never to meet you so, who cares? What's interesting is what I found in myself. That paralyzing fear that putting too much of myself in a story will weaken it, will make it too one sided. Yet…you pull it off. And I shouldn't fear it. I am who I am, I'll have the biases I have. I'll be as limited as I am, because I can't ask any more of myself. Maybe that can work. So, about eleven or twelve years after I picked up a novel by you, I'm still learning a bit about courage and kindness through your work. And a little here or there about writing.
Lastly, I apologize to the other readers on the forum. Yes, I am aware this is way too long. Yes, I am aware it has strayed off topic. Yes, I am aware Mr. Card will almost certainly not read it. And yes, admins are welcome to delete it as they see fit. I will not in any way question that decision, because this should've probably been its own thread and I mistakenly thought I could contain myself to writing something short and to the point and then found a wealth of emotion I hadn't expected. Can you tell I've spent 13 something hours listening to Ender in Exile from one day to the next? I don't post this on its own thread because I don't think it'd be interesting enough to other readers to merit it, and because I do secretly hope Mr. Card might eye this behemoth while looking for real advice or comments on his next, fairly awesome looking, project.
I'm sure any contributions will be more to the point of the thread at hand. Again, I apologize in advance if anybody finds this disrespectful.
I have to disagree. I think if OSC gets that "spare time on his hands" he should keep working on new stories.
I think my main reason for feeling this way is, funny enough, one of your examples-- the Dark Tower. Which by coincidence, I'm in the middle of a re-read of right now (ka, ).
King knew it was part of a longer story, and he may have had an idea of how it would end, but definitely the details weren't known to him when he started writing it. The books are so full of contradictions it's insane. King actually, when he finished the series, did what you're proposing OSC should do-- went back and edited the first book to make it "fit" more with the final three (which were written all at once). And you know-- I'm not crazy about him doing that. For one thing, it just makes the contradictions WORSE. Because he only did that one book-- so instead of the first four not quite agreeing with the final three, it's books 2-3-4 that don't agree with books 1-5-6-7. In very large ways, such as (pulling out an example) the direction that Roland is travelling when he starts out. I read the "original" book 1 when I started the series, and I don't like the "new" book 1. He cleaned it up too much. It may read easier now but it loses the authenticity, and some of the charm that comes from the roughness of it. Basically-- the story of the writer, and the story behind the books, are PART of the story contained within the books. And I dig that. Going back to "clean up" takes away that essential element, that ability to feel not only the story but the voice behind the story. But then again I'm one of those people who always reads forewards and afterwards and am always fascinated by the process behind the book. I can handle a few continuity errors. I expect them. I mean, within a single book it can be annoying, but when you're talking about a series that was written piecemeal over decades, it's not that big a deal. The books don't spring out of thin air, after all, and they don't need to be polished and shiny and perfect to be great books. There are no bugs, only features.
And anyway, the new stuff that OSC is putting out is frickin awesome. And the Ender series is frickin awesome as it is. It doesn't NEED the time put in to do the type of thing you're talking about. I mean, I understand your desire to have it tightened up, I have my own OCD tendencies. But I really think OSC's time is better spent putting out new books BECAUSE WE ALL WANT NEW BOOKS And I'm just about dyin waiting for the sequels to the Mithermages and Pathfinder series. And I think that he has a lot more storytelling up his sleeve without going back and rehashing old books he's already written.
So... I guess that's my novel of a post to respond to your novel of a post.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
The thing is though, I don't advocate for destroying the originals or pretending they don't exist. The process is still there. There's v1 and v2 of the original books, like the much cited Chapter 15 in Ender's Game. On a much smaller scale, Mr. Card has already done what I'm suggesting.
I think the rejection to the "non-revised" books is simply an emotional attachment. As a reader (and likely as a writer) one feels closer to the original and any change to that work you already love feels like a "betrayal." I'm thinking more than anything of completely new readers, who would start reading the new books from scratch.
Your point about only revising one book is true. That would make for even WORSE contradictions, which is why I make it a point to state that this can only be done when the entire series is finished. So, when the entire series is finished, you can go back and tighten up ALL the books and re-release them together. That's a gargantuan task in itself though, and another reason why I don't think Card would do it.
There is something I have to disagree with you on, though. You say "WE ALL WANT NEW BOOKS", and you're right. We do. I do, at least. But the kind of revision I'm asking for isn't "nit-picking". It isn't about the direction they're walking or traveling in (although it would be awesome if the timelines actually made sense in a revised edition). It's about what the characters think, feel and how they react to things. In essence, it would be a slightly different Speaker, Xenocide and CotM. They would be different books, and the classic originals would remain incredible (but different) books in their own right.
Think of how it would change Ender's actions in Xenocide if he knew about genetic alterations going into the story. Jane would certainly remember it, or at least the possibility of it. Think of characters drawing parallels between the lives they lead in the Shadow books while in the Speaker books (Ender remembering things from Shakespeare, drawing parallels, etc.) More than anything, think of just how drastically such a re-write would change CotM. Remember that "evil" Peter sprang from Ender's mind, and knows many things Ender knows. Ender wrote the Hegemon, so Ender in CotM SHOULD know the details of the Shadow wars - but he doesn't in CotM BECAUSE Card hadn't thought of it yet. So the "evil Peter from Ender's mind" in a revised CotM would have many different attributes to the one we actually read about originally. Of course it's still a figment of Ender's imagination, but there's so much IN Ender's imagination that, continuity wise, he should know but doesn't - because Card hadn't thought of it yet. The WORST part is that Card hints at things (like Peter knowing Korean) in CotM, but those are just things he was making up as he was going. You don't think imagination Peter would've had a dozen things to draw from the original Shadow wars during their fight to take over Starways Congress? Not from Peter's point of view (figment, I know), but from Ender's himself?
All I'm saying is, when they finally come out with Shadows Alive, it's going to be a very difficult book for continuity. And I think Card will sidestep that difficulty by simply ignoring the continuity problems, the changes between the characters and sort of "force" them together. He's a wonderful writer, so I think he'll pull it off, but the story could be much, much richer.
Last thing: between Speaker and Xenocide Ender lives in Lusitania for thirty years. When the characters from Lusitania finally meet Bean and his children (in some way or another) in Shadows Alive how will it be conceivable that Ender hasn't spoken of Bean, his children, Arkanian, etc. to Grego, Olhado, Jane, etc. in 30 years? And if he had spoken of them, why had no character acknowledged any of it IN Xenocide or CotM, especially when the situations they were faced with drew so many parallels (genetic brilliance, political intrigue, etc.)
The fact of the matter is, Ender grew in Ender in Exile. The Ender at the end of Exile is not the same man as Speaker, and it's not something that can be fixed with another book between them because that could only be the case if the Exile Ender knew LESS than the Speaker Ender but the opposite is true. The Enderverse situation is actually really unique, and I hope that at least it be recognized as problem (if not actually addressed because it's too complex to do so).
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Oh, and as an afterthought (sorry for double posting), I loved the ending to the Dark Tower. And I've read both versions of the first book and like the second better. The language was distracting, the story was more important.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I'm really eager to read the NEW "Shadows in Flight" and think it is a great concept for a book, though I confess myself disappointed at only 50,000 words. Surely the story is more complex than that?
Just the thought of this story thrills me, I mean really thrills me. I picture giant Bean, trapped in a space ship with a bunch of incredibly precocious kids that are not only his equal, but very possibly his superior in intelligence. It is a parent's nightmare. Just that one aspect alone has near unlimited potential for humor and pathos.
Then we get to the many dilemmas they will face in space travel. I imagine, there will come a point where it will be difficult for Bean to get around, and as such, he will be forced to send his kids down to various planet surfaces for food, fuel, to update the computer libraries, to negotiate for equipment updates, and similar. That opens the door to many adventures.
Will Jame be helping Bean in his travels? In the forefront, or behind the scenes? So many questions, so many possibilities!
Though, I'm not trying to write the book for you, I'm simply expressing that I can envision all kinds of potential for various story lines that I'm eager to read.
The now "Shadows Alive" is also a story I'm very eager to hear. I simply can't not believe the Ender series ended so neat and tidily as many assume.
I simply can't see Star Congress taking their humiliating defeat oh so very kindly. They, Star Congress, must see the inhabitants of Lusitania as the greatest danger to their power in the known universe.
Then you combine the power of Lusitania with the power of the now all genius planet of 'Path'. Combined they represent a force so overwhelming that Star Congress simply can not allow them to stand and not be under their control.
Now compound all that with Lusitania's alliance with the Formics, and Star Congress must feel immensely threatened.
Then what happens to Faster than Light Travel? Do the people of Lusitania continue to control it and exclusively use it, or does Star Congress want a piece of the action? Do commercial interest want a piece of the action, and who controls who gets to do what and when?
Do the now many planets of "Piggies" and Father Trees combined with the many Formic planets, give Jane the power to expand Faster that Light Travel beyond their small needs? Are they able to extend that resource to other people? And what other people, and who controls it, who profits from it?
Now that sounds like a force the established government simply can't ignore.
Then of course, the 'Descoladores', that in itself is huge subplot just waiting to happen.
Plus I've grown to like Peter and Wang-Mu, and am eager to read their part in the continuing story. Plus, how does the 'Piggy' world progress now that new technology is opened up to them?
Do the Formics become war like? Do they maintain their alliance after Ender dies? Do they feel the same affinity with Peter, and are they as easily able to communicate with him?
So many many unanswered questions.
I suspect that Mr Card is stunned, though pleased, to find that a seemingly insignificant short story written in the '70s, has expanded into such a complex universe with so many compelling characters ... and such eager fans waiting for the next expansion of that universe.
I'm so very very eager to meet Bean's kids, and believe there has to be some humor to Bean being trapped in a space ship with such precocious kids.
Like I said, I'm thrilled to the core.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
I was reading CotM and it came to me: if Bean's children meet Jane and the people in Lusitania - they won't have to die! They can be taken Outside by Jane and have their genetic conditioned fixed. If not by themselves, then by a version of the recolada Ela might make. Too bad Mr. Card has repeatedly stated that Bean will positively, absolutely, no take-backsies die. In fact, I think in Shadows Alive they should contemplate the moral problems going Outside poses, as it is basically a potion for immortality. Sick? Go Outside, come back whole. Old? Keep a young, vital image of yourself, come back young. Etc, etc.
More than the science fiction itself (which, is still fascinating) I think the moral and ethic problems facing everyone in this new book are larger than anything Mr. Card has written so far in the Ender series. Anyone agree?
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I have to agree, when the original "Shadows in Flight" which is now "Shadows Alive" was proposed, I was very disappointed. I felt like I knew Bean so very well, and couldn't stand the thought of him simply not existing any more. At best, I hoped his children would give us an account of his life and death.
But now, we have two books, the first, in which I hope Bean is alive, and the second after he has died.
For some reason, I need to experience Bean's death, maybe that is the only proper way I can morn for him. Maybe that is the only proper way I can actually say goodbye. Regardless, the absents of his death leaves HUGE hole in both me and the story.
Perhaps now that we have two books, the before and after story, the HUGE hole will be filled. Time will tell.
Also, I'm not fond of doing serious reading on-line, and from the discussion here, I'm still very unclear when the Hard Copy version of the next book will be available.
Any clarification on that???
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I think this universe is complex enough that OSC could seriously write a dozen more books, or more. He probably won't, though. These are likely the last two books we'll see in this saga, unless he decides he really wants to keep it going, which is totally fine with me.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Well chapter 1 is up on IGMS. Has anyone read it yet?
Posted by Houk (Member # 12621) on :
Yep. Just finished the first chapter. I have to admit I wasn't impressed with the way it started. But i's only the first chapter so there's a lot of room for the story to go somewhere.
Posted by endersbooch (Member # 12630) on :
excited for shadow in flight! i hope it'll be as good as all the other books!! big fan.
Posted by jongo05 (Member # 7580) on :
January 17, 2012? What happened to November?
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
January is the official "publication date" but often books are released earlier. I think it will be released sometime in late November.
Posted by peeer (Member # 12635) on :
(Post Removed by Janitor Blade. Residual spam.)
[ September 06, 2011, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Whistled.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Wow - so this is what I miss when I severely cut back on my Hatrack time!
Out of curiosity, does this have anything to do with the notification I got from Amazon today about a book called "Enders Game: Formic Wars: Burning Earth" or are they totally different? Are we seriously getting two different new Ender books in one season?
Posted by richd (Member # 12520) on :
The book you mention is a comic book, about Mazer and the first Formic War, and I think it's already been released.
Posted by Craig Childs (Member # 5382) on :
I'm still confused about the MMB (on Kindle and other e-devices) and the ebook (also available on said Kindle and other said e-devices). Which one should I purchase? Or do I need to purchase them both to get the full story?
maybe I'm not imaginative enough, but it sounds like the MMB is just an illustrated version of the e-book?
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
Well, do the illustrations have animation, and music? That might be it? Or is there a sequential art component to the book?
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
I just noticed that the release date for Shadows in Flight has been changed - is that for the whole project, or for the MMB?
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
The release date is for the regular print book. The MMB date has not been announced.
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
Thanks! Though a sadface for the impatient me :-)
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Sorry for double posting here, and on the thread I created to discuss the topic. However, I believe OSC might be more likely to read this thread (seeing as how he started it), so I'd like to repost one point here. If the admins think this is out of line, feel free to delete the post and again, I apologize.
quote: If there's still a "problem" that hasn't been answered above, I don't know what it is...
The Jane problem is quite a biggie, actually, and nobody has given any hint of a solution.
The Jane continuity problem goes thus:
We know that:
1.) Jane's memory is made up of all computers connected to the ansible in the world, so she knows everything on every computer ever simultaneously.
2.) Bean's ship has an ansible connection, so it stands to reason that Jane has access to that ship's data and can communicate with it.
From these two facts we can infer that:
3.) Jane knows about Bean's kids and their condition.
If The Beanie Babies aren't dead by the time of Xenocide, why doesn't Jane call them back as soon as she has the cure? Why doesn't Jane bring them instantly to Lusitania?
You can't say that she was waiting to do it later. Her life was at risk (late Xenocide, early CotM) - why would she risk not giving the cure to The Beanie Babies?
So do the Beanies already have a cure by the time they meet the rest of the gang? If they do, why wouldn't Jane recruit them in early Xenocide to help with the gang, seeing as how they're clearly the most brilliant geneticists in the universe (having already solved such a complex problem as their disease on their own)?
Even with all the arguments provided about why Ender wouldn't have already brought up Bean, gang and mentions of the Shadow series (some of which I agree with, most of which I don't) those don't address why Jane wouldn't bring them up - specially in such dire circumstances.
Again, think, if he had written the books in chronological order, wouldn't people be furious at the things he left out of Speaker, Xenocide and CotM as followups to SotG, Exile, Investment Counselor and SiF?
Solutions to the Jane problem without rewriting the story are welcome.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Perhaps you should just read the book when it comes out.
Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up. They sound more like a fanfic writer wanting the whole universe of a story, every character and every event, to be perfectly linked to every other in a perfect web. That rarely happens, and would feel shallow if t did.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:If The Beanie Babies aren't dead by the time of Xenocide, why doesn't Jane call them back as soon as she has the cure? Why doesn't Jane bring them instantly to Lusitania?
I can't remember how FTL was furthered in CotM; but in Xenocide, it's made quite clear that the only way Jane can transport people is if she has a connection to someone on the ship through a philotic connection-- Ender and Miro for the first trip, and Peter II and Young Val (I think) for others.
It's also noted in Xenocide that there are things that Jane is aware of-- such as when her processes pick up that Qing-Jao is looking for her, based on the girl's computer queries-- and things she is not aware of.
For example, a family of genetic anomolies that no one has done research on in a couple of millenia. The Delphikis may have just slipped under her radar, and there's an answer in continuity for that.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Preposterous. Jane's attention is almost everywhere at once, the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside).
Why wouldn't she devote one billionth of her attention to constantly watch over three of the most brilliant people in the universe? It would stand to reason that, given her supernatural ability, she would keep track of everyone who ever had a connection to Ender (or who was particularly outstanding in some way). Why on Earth would she just "not pay attention" to possibly the only people related to him in any way still alive? That they would "slip under her radar" doesn't sound like a solid excuse when you consider how the character's been setup.
Whoopsies, a mind so brilliant it's beyond comprehension stops following the most brilliant human beings in the universe because she was too busy watching Animaniacs reruns. Please. Yes, there are things she's unaware of, but I hardly doubt that the only other people alive from Ender's time, with a direct connection to Ender, and with a genetic condition that puts them at the forefront of humanity would be one of them.
As for FLTL travel needing someone on the ship to have a philotic connection, I don't see the problem at all. How did they pick up Wang Mu? They sent out Young Peter and picked her up. How did they interact with the ship that was coming to Lusitania? They sent Young Peter. Young Peter, YV or Ender needing to be on ship is just the kind of fuel it needs. Is it so inconceivable to send Ender to meet the Beanie Babies in order to pick them up and SAVE THEIR LIVES!?!? Oh, Ender doesn't want to go outside after the first time? Send Young Peter or Young Val. Done.
I think the reason for so much rejection to my objections is that, as has been stated before, most people just couldn't give a flying banana about continuity when the repercussions are so large. They love what they have and they don't want it altered or explained away in any way. However, nobody is able to rationally counter argue that these ARE issues, and NOT minor ones. You could write an Encyclopedia with minor issues in the Enderverse, and ironically, I couldn't give a flying banana about THOSE (Ferreira, time continuity errors, who read the Hegemon when, etc.)
quote: Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up.
Please, Orincoro, if you have the time and disposition, explain to me why:
1.) Jane not noticing the Beanie Babies is not a dire plot problem. (If the answer is a reason why she hasn't noticed them, that's a solution to the problem, not a reason why it's not a problem to begin with).
2.) Jane would cruelly and inhumanly let the Beanie Babies die (or risk their death when her death comes) by not giving them the cure.
3.) Jane would not recruit the minds of the Beanie Babies to begin with (if they've found a cure on their own or not). Remember that they recruit Wang Mu early in CotM precisely because she was born with the genius gift of Path without the twitchy, twitchy OCD. Aren't these characters that use all the resources available to them?
If Jane hasn't noticed them through some crazy virus (*cough deus ex machina cough*) it should be noted in one of the upcoming books, because her not noticing them is something that stands out and is completely out of character. The only other option in my head is that The Beanie Babies are stupid and badly uninformed by the standard of the time of Xenocide and that they don't recruit them because they'd be of no value. If that is the case, future books in which the two meet would prove to be dull indeed.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Also, as to Orincoro's other point of perhaps me just reading the book when it comes out:
I have read the books. The continuity problem I speak of is square between Xenocide and CotM (read points 1 and 2). So the books you're telling me to wait to read (Shadows Alive and Shadows in Flight), in my opinion, should somehow address this. I don't know if OSC is already aware of what, to me, is a big deal, so I'm hoping he'll get a chance to see this.
If we got one message from Card saying something like: don't worry kid, I got this.
I would go back to just reading the forums and not posting like I've done for years.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
I hate double posting like this, but I always post and the realize I've forgotten something. I know, I must be the most annoying person on Hatrack right now, but I swear this isn't trolling.
Anyway, the thing I forgot is this:
The investment software that keeps the "perpetual funds" for the research into Bean's condition active is...Jane herself. She's the tool used in order to keep the funding on his condition eternal. Now, please, tell me that she wouldn't be even a little curious about what that money was going towards and that she would just "not notice" Bean and his trip through space.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Have you read the first and second chapters of Shadows in Flight? They're up on IGMS. In them it is revealed
SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . That no one is doing research on Bean's condition any more except for Bean and his children. And no one is really communicating with them. . . . . . . . . . . .
So...no. There are reasons why Jane may not notice them.
quote: the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside).
Actually, Jane makes a point of saying how difficult it was to push things outside. She's not limitless-- and she only knows something if she starts paying attention to it.
For all her access to the world's greatest minds, she's not nearly as creative as say, Ela, or Miro, or Olhado, or Grego. There are definite limits.
Also, remember-- at the same time that FTL was tested successfully, the solution to the descolada was discovered. What do you imagine that bringing Bean and his kids to the Lusitania would have accomplished? Suppose the descolada got ahold of their altered genetic code and found a way to coopt human biology the way it coopted the biology of the pequeninos and capim?
At any rate-- I'll be interested to see how OSC resolves all this.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
quote: Actually, Jane makes a point of saying how difficult it was to push things outside. She's not limitless-- and she only knows something if she starts paying attention to it.
I've repeatedly pointed out why it's almost inconceivable that she wouldn't pay attention to them. Also, pushing things Outside requires holding in your mind trillions and trillions of variables (The Hive Queens, that use entire civilizations as extensions of their bodies can't do it) - and that's the first time in the entire series where her abilities are even taxed. Following each and every person who was ever related to Ender, and even each of their descendants, should be a breeze by comparison. That's putting aside that she was the very software used to keep the funds alive, that they stand out from everyone else Ender ever came in contact with (by still being alive) and being special because of the genetic condition alone. There are many, many factors that alone warrant Jane's attention - combined it seems to me impossible that she would ignore them.
quote: That no one is doing research on Bean's condition any more except for Bean and his children. And no one is really communicating with them.
So...no. There are reasons why Jane may not notice them.
I have read those chapters. I don't think this addresses any of the points I've raised.
As to the whole "what if the Descolada mutated and that would be dangerous and that's why they're not introduced", I find that a fascinating answer. Thank you, that's the kind of thing I'm looking to discuss.
If that's the case, why not just bring the cure to them and not bring them to Lusitania? (Bringing the cure to them could be a cool solution, and explain somewhat their absence from Xenocide and CotM - interesting solution).
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by salcedocine: Preposterous. Jane's attention is almost everywhere at once, the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside).
Why wouldn't she devote one billionth of her attention to constantly watch over three of the most brilliant people in the universe? It would stand to reason that, given her supernatural ability, she would keep track of everyone who ever had a connection to Ender (or who was particularly outstanding in some way). Why on Earth would she just "not pay attention" to possibly the only people related to him in any way still alive? That they would "slip under her radar" doesn't sound like a solid excuse when you consider how the character's been setup.
Whoopsies, a mind so brilliant it's beyond comprehension stops following the most brilliant human beings in the universe because she was too busy watching Animaniacs reruns. Please. Yes, there are things she's unaware of, but I hardly doubt that the only other people alive from Ender's time, with a direct connection to Ender, and with a genetic condition that puts them at the forefront of humanity would be one of them.
As for FLTL travel needing someone on the ship to have a philotic connection, I don't see the problem at all. How did they pick up Wang Mu? They sent out Young Peter and picked her up. How did they interact with the ship that was coming to Lusitania? They sent Young Peter. Young Peter, YV or Ender needing to be on ship is just the kind of fuel it needs. Is it so inconceivable to send Ender to meet the Beanie Babies in order to pick them up and SAVE THEIR LIVES!?!? Oh, Ender doesn't want to go outside after the first time? Send Young Peter or Young Val. Done.
I think the reason for so much rejection to my objections is that, as has been stated before, most people just couldn't give a flying banana about continuity when the repercussions are so large. They love what they have and they don't want it altered or explained away in any way. However, nobody is able to rationally counter argue that these ARE issues, and NOT minor ones. You could write an Encyclopedia with minor issues in the Enderverse, and ironically, I couldn't give a flying banana about THOSE (Ferreira, time continuity errors, who read the Hegemon when, etc.)
quote: Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up.
Please, Orincoro, if you have the time and disposition, explain to me why:
1.) Jane not noticing the Beanie Babies is not a dire plot problem. (If the answer is a reason why she hasn't noticed them, that's a solution to the problem, not a reason why it's not a problem to begin with).
2.) Jane would cruelly and inhumanly let the Beanie Babies die (or risk their death when her death comes) by not giving them the cure.
3.) Jane would not recruit the minds of the Beanie Babies to begin with (if they've found a cure on their own or not). Remember that they recruit Wang Mu early in CotM precisely because she was born with the genius gift of Path without the twitchy, twitchy OCD. Aren't these characters that use all the resources available to them?
If Jane hasn't noticed them through some crazy virus (*cough deus ex machina cough*) it should be noted in one of the upcoming books, because her not noticing them is something that stands out and is completely out of character. The only other option in my head is that The Beanie Babies are stupid and badly uninformed by the standard of the time of Xenocide and that they don't recruit them because they'd be of no value. If that is the case, future books in which the two meet would prove to be dull indeed.
I have a plausible answer for you: Bean's children *choose* to do something other than be involved in the events of the other novels.
Wow. That was easy.
alternative: they *are* involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained in the other novels.
Wow. Also very easy.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
quote: I have a plausible answer for you: Bean's children *choose* to do something other than be involved in the events of the other novels.
Wow. That was easy.
alternative: they *are* involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained in the other novels.
Wow. Also very easy.
Both your answers own up to the fact that this is a problem, and offer a solution to that problem - neither explain why this isn't a problem to begin with.
As to the answers themselves:
1.) They would choose not to get the cure for the disease that's killing them? That doesn't sound very plausible to me. Although, them receiving the cure, then being asked for help and them going "nah, we got better things to do", I guess sounds like something that could happen.
2.) If they are involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained, then I'm perfectly content to leave it at that. I've said ad-nauseum that I'm not bringing up a problem that necessarily demands a re-write (thought that is an option), but simply something that doesn't fit in with continuity that OSC should watch out for when writing the new novels. If he takes this into account and incorporates them the way you mention, then all's right - but I doubt it'll be "easy".
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
No, it's not a problem. If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem. You're talking a very small world view of the storyline and the literary universe it takes place in. This is a mistake. Just because you have 10 characters, doesn't mean your novel has to account for 10 characters from start to finish.
That kind of logic is what made the Star Wars prequels suck so much. The author, unlike the reader, does not approach the work as consisting of a static palette of people and events as they occur in other previous works. The story is not bounded by what came before. That would be fan fiction, and rather poor fan fiction to boot.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
quote: If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem.
It is, because that plausible reason can only be found in works that haven't been written or published yet. It's like if in act 1 I showed a character sweeping and then in act 2 I show him covered in blood but don't explain it. It stands out as a continuity error, unless in act 3 I show some flashback or dialogue that explains it.
I would agree that:
quote: You're talking a very small world view of the storyline and the literary universe it takes place in. This is a mistake. Just because you have 10 characters, doesn't mean your novel has to account for 10 characters from start to finish.
However, Card has explicitly stated that new books cross the Shadow series with the Speaker series. That DOES present continuity challenges, because of the nature of those two stories. Again, please, if you'd read the stories chronologically (starting from Polish Boy and ending with CotM), would the jump from Exile to Speaker really not jar you even a little? OSC builds story lines and connections between characters (they're right there in the books!) and then drops them. Why do those relationships go dead from one book to the next? Because he thought of some 30 years before, the others 30 years after - but that's not a reason pertinent to the story.
Accounting for the Beanies in this case isn't wanton, it's not superfluous. It's not following every little detail. It's being congruent to Jane's very nature. If, after all the arguments I've given (of which you've countered exactly none) you still think that it's a deus ex machina to bring in the Babies in CotM and not the other way around (that NOT bringing them is a deus ex machina) then I guess we don't have a lot to discuss.
As long as OSC has to write something in the new series that accounts for this, then this is a problem that he solved - not a non-issue.
Agree to disagree.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
My bad, I believe to start at the very beginning chronologically you'd have to start with Mazer in Prison. There could still be another short story further back, anyone know (without counting the graphic novels)?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by salcedocine:
quote: If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem.
It is, because that plausible reason can only be found in works that haven't been written or published yet. It's like if in act 1 I showed a character sweeping and then in act 2 I show him covered in blood but don't explain it. It stands out as a continuity error, unless in act 3 I show some flashback or dialogue that explains it.
and why must the reason for anything be stated directly in order to satisfy? If there are plausible reasons, you can assume whatever you like- the story is not responsible for accounting for all its characters, or all of their actions, at all times.
Do you get mad when an action movie doesn't explain why nobody ever needs to go to the bathroom? Or do you just assume that they do, and don't talk about it? A novel makes choices about what nfrmation is important, and what isn't. If there exist plausible spaces inbeetween actions and events that's e don't see, then they are not inconsistent. The information you are presented is not *complete*, but it is internally consistent. Otherwise we're just arguing style, which is a totally different discussion from technical correctness and consistency.
Sorry,bayou just have nothing to complain about here.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Jesus Christ Bananas.
Yes, up to the point where the stories are NOW you don't need that information. They don't have to reveal everything. It's honky-dory.
However, in Shadows Alive, where the Lusitanians meet the Beanie Babies, it'd be ridiculous to not show their first meeting. If Jane has already spoken to them, and it hasn't been shown, then it'd be a big plot point revolving around why she hasn't brought them up. If they speak to the Beanies and Jane hasn't ever heard of them before, then that's a plot hole for the many, many reasons I've brought up.
If, in Shadows Alive, they show a conversation between Jane and the Beanies that takes place (timewise) between Xenocide and CotM, then the problem is solved.
This continuity problem doesn't arise until they begin to interact with each other precisely because before that you can imagine anything you want happening in that time-space between. However, as soon as we read one conversation between the Beanies and Jane in Shadows Alive, that will show us whether they've ever spoken before or not. See the difference?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
No. Honestly, I don't. Jane can have either talked to them or not, mentioned them or not, known about them of not, I will not be perturbed if it turns out she is a part of their narrative, and we, the readers, werent privy to that before. It's a novel, not just a story. There's a difference.
Posted by cdraney (Member # 12711) on :
I don't want to hijack this thread, but since you are already chatting about Shadows in Flight I wanted to ask if anyone else received a weird email from Amazon regarding the Kindle version. The release date is now listed as February 2013. Anyone have info about that?
Feel free to direct me to the proper thread. I'm new to Hatrack.
Thanks.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
I'm all confused about release dates now too. I just got a Kindle Fire and don't want to miss the MMB, but there seems to be no consensus on its arrival date (versus the arrival date of the book).
Can anyone give us firm information?
Posted by Judgment (Member # 12655) on :
Hello from Amazon.com,
We're writing because an unexpected delay has occurred in delivering the Kindle version of the book listed below:
'Shadows in Flight (The Shadow)' Card, Orson Scott
The old delivery date was: 1/17/2012 The new delivery date is: 2/1/2013
We'll keep your pre-order open on your account and deliver the title to your Kindle as soon as the publisher releases the digital version.
Posted by cdraney (Member # 12711) on :
That CAN'T be right, can it? A whole year off now?
Posted by Judgment (Member # 12655) on :
I assume that part is a typo. Surely it means 2/1/2012.
Posted by cdraney (Member # 12711) on :
The Amazon page for the Kindle version now reads:
Item Under Review
This title is currently unavailable because customers have told us that there may be something wrong with the description, the content, or the way that the content is displayed.
We're working with the publisher to fix the problem as quickly as possible. As always, we value customer feedback.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
Often times mean-spirited people flag OSC's books for review because they disagree with his political/religious beliefs. I bet that's what happened to cause the "Item Under Review" message. If true, it will go away shortly.
The whole thing is ludicrous. Hatred and intolerance in the name of inclusion and tolerance makes no sense at all.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps: I bet that's what happened to cause the "Item Under Review" message.
Actually, it seems more likely there is some question about the accuracy of the pub date and it's now being looked into.
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
Man, I was really looking forward to having a January post-Christmas read!
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
quote:Originally posted by salcedocine: ... This continuity problem doesn't arise until they begin to interact with each other precisely because before that you can imagine anything you want happening in that time-space between.
However, as soon as we read one conversation between the Beanies and Jane in Shadows Alive, that will show us whether they've ever spoken before or not. See the difference?
Perhaps I've not been following along closely enough, but "Shadows in Flight" occurs before "Shadows Alive". "Shadows in Flight" is the account of Bean and his kids in their endless journey across the universe, and if Jane is somehow helping them, then this book is likely where we will see that.
Keep in mind, Jane is not all or nothing. At her highest levels she communicates with Ender as if a real person. However, that is merely one level of process. She has countless sub-processes going on to the degree that she is in essence monitoring all the communication on the 100 Worlds.
She may be interacting with Bean as one of these subtle sub-processes. She may simply be skewing the data he receives when he is looking for a nearby planet to update his libraries and take on food and equipment upgrades. She may be communicating with my by text.
How he perceives this communications in unknown. He may simply see it as an advanced feature of the ship's computer interface.
My point is, we tend to take an all or nothing view, but there are many subtle levels in between. Again, it may be as subtle as Jane skewing the data Bean receives from searches and various computer analysis. Rather that acting as a living entity in Bean life, Jane may be acting as a very minor sub-process.
The question has been raised as to why Ender never mentions Bean, especially in the search for the cure for the Driscolata virus. I think it was simply because it wasn't relevant. Bean genetic modification is based on 3,000 year old technology. It has been incorporated into the standard science of the future, and is not specifically relevant to the problem at hand.
I'm sure on occasion thoughts of Bean and the others do pass through Ender's mind, but in his mind they are ghosts from the past, they are people who have been dead for countless centuries. These are not thoughts to dwell on or talk about.
In my mind, in the space between books, I do imagine Jane in some way helping Bean, just not at the level she interacts with Ender.
Still, it will be interesting to see how the two stories get woven together. Getting these stories to intersect in no small point, and I have to assume O.S.Card has given it some thought to make it believable. In fact, the very existance of "Shadows Alive" hinges on this one plot point. I just don't see Card treating it as a trivial matter.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by cdraney (Member # 12711) on :
Anyone have news about the strange new release date for the Kindle version of this book? Amazon's site now says February 2013!! A year away? Really?
Posted by n (Member # 12718) on :
What salcedocine seems to be forgetting is that Jane's thoughts are Philotic-fast. And since Bean and his children are moving faster than light, the communication is almost impossible (subjective Jane-years between every keystroke or phoneme uttered by anyone on the ship). That's not very conducive to a proper communication.
Perhaps, the easiest solution to the problem would be placing the "Shadows in Flight" (I haven't read the on-line chapters [being a poor student ], but as far as I can tell, Bean does go back to the slower-than-light speeds) at the time (or, perhaps , just after the time) of the final resolution in CotM. The end of the wedding ceremonies? The end of the honeymoons?
This way Jane could justify her lack of attention to/trace of late-Ender's philotic connection with Bean, establish a contact with Bean and his children and let the novel start from there.
I am sorry for reviving this half-dead-by-now topic with my first post here and with my less than correct English. I've read all Shadow and Ender series books in my native language, and I'm still learning English.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
What's your native language N?
And I don't think communication would be impossible because we've seen Jane often communicate with people going at FTL speeds, most notably, Miro during his year (subjective), thirty year (realtime) long trip to meet Valentine at the opening of Xenocide.
quote: No. Honestly, I don't. Jane can have either talked to them or not, mentioned them or not, known about them of not, I will not be perturbed if it turns out she is a part of their narrative, and we, the readers, werent privy to that before. It's a novel, not just a story. There's a difference.
I don't believe it's OK for Jane to have not at least been aware of them before, for the many reasons I've been stating. Maybe she could have a reason for not talking to them, but it's cruel not to tell them of the cure to their disease and Jane isn't a cruel entity. If Jane and her relationship with the Beanies turns out to be part of the narrative that we weren't privy to before - yay! That's what I've been saying SHOULD happen, among a few other options.
The only not-okay scenario for me would be if Jane didn't know of the Beanies, didn't care if they lived or died, and it wasn't justified in any way (to cover it from being a plot hole for, again, the many reasons stated above).
Any problem can have a great literary solution. Even a simple, quick, literary solution. However, first you have to accept that you have a potential problem so you can stay one step ahead of the curb.
Posted by salcedocine (Member # 12613) on :
Just in case there's any confusion, here's what I mean by "justified":
Not justified:
Jane not knowing of Beanies, period. No explanation, just taking that as the natural way things should be.
Justified (badly):
Jane doesn't know of the Beanies because a weird cable malfunction made that particular part of her consciousness go wanky wonky.
Jutified (a little better):
The Beanies don't have a working ansible (orcs blew it up), so while Jane knows OF them, she can't communicate with them (and call them back when the cure is found).
Justified (best):
Whatever Mr. Card comes up with if he realizes this is a potential problem.
Posted by kayak77 (Member # 12722) on :
Any update on the delay of the Kindle version of this book? I just tried to pre-order only to find out it doesn't come out until 2/1/2013. That's a bummer and I hope it isn't some issue with selling more hardcovers/paperbacks first. I just received my Kindle and was looking forward to building up my digital collection.
Posted by Kelly1101 (Member # 12562) on :
Salcedocine:
I don't think that OSC is going to rewrite the entire series just because you have a little problem. No one else seems that bothered. Hope That Helps!!!
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
After catching up with the thread, one thing kept popping into my mind as I read Salcedocine's posts. Jane refers to her consiousness as consisting of her top, 10?, levels. Any levels below that she isn't actually "thinking" about it. She can read e-mails automatically and store the information, but not actually "look" at it.
She might be noticing the messages that Bean has sent but it doesn't go up to her top levels so she doesn't really put any "thought" to it.
Surely she knows he is out there through the ansible connection. Though since he, currently, has nothing to do with Ender he just isn't taking any of her consiousness levels.
You would have thought in Si Wang Mu's case that Jane would have already known everything about their condition through an official document sent by SC giving permission for this experiement to be done. Someone HAD to send an e-mail or letter regarding it. Or at least getting authorization from a higher-up. Jane would have known about it. Known exactly what was changed too. But she didn't. She still had to get the DNA to check.
Why would she need to crack security codes if she already knew the information behind it as it was entered?
She isn't a god. She isn't supposed to know "everything". Perhaps its on such a low level... like how cells form in your body... you don't actually feel it happening. Or your muscles move as you type a response. She lives in the ansible connections... so its like her hands and feet. You can notice what you touch since its in your top levels of consiousness.
Hope that helps. Makes sense to me.
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
I dont think he's implying that OSC should rewrite the entire series - he's addressing a concern toward a series he cares a lot about. And I highly doubt that pointing out that no one else is bothered helps at all.
Salcedocine bring up a decent point in the fact that Bean is reachable via Ansible and Jane. Bean is at the heart of why Jane was able to reveal herself to Ender.. and wasnt Jane also programmed to handle Bean's pension/investments once Petra dies?
I dont think that the issues are series-breaking or throws out the value of the previous books.. but I believe addressing this in Shadows Alive would be a great jumping point
I mentioned in another thread how deception is a common theme in the enderverse.. so since i've read EinE, I've imagined Bean was never mentioned to Lusitania for a greater purpose - such as Jane/Ender protecting them from Starways Congress.
I think it might even be really cool to see some sort of correspondence between Bean and Ender as an opener to Shadows Alive - It could even be something to the effect of "Ho Bean, I've arrived on Lusitania - there's super smart Xenobiologists here but we're going to cut off the ansible you should come here - etc etc" and then Bean would set a new course for the ship he's on and begin his journey to Lusitania.. during this time the events of the speaker series would happen and when he arrives we'd be at a time after CotM.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by salcedocine: Just in case there's any confusion, here's what I mean by "justified":
Not justified:
Jane not knowing of Beanies, period. No explanation, just taking that as the natural way things should be.
Justified (badly):
Jane doesn't know of the Beanies because a weird cable malfunction made that particular part of her consciousness go wanky wonky.
Jutified (a little better):
The Beanies don't have a working ansible (orcs blew it up), so while Jane knows OF them, she can't communicate with them (and call them back when the cure is found).
Justified (best):
Whatever Mr. Card comes up with if he realizes this is a potential problem.
Ok, Bean and his kids turned off the Ansible. Insert random subplot about someone on earth wanting to study them to restart research on their condition for nefarious reasons and Bean turning the ansible off to protect his kids. Problem solved.
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
OSC mentioned that there's two ships in Shadows in Flight. Maybe the 2nd ship doesnt have ansible.
Posted by Willster328 (Member # 12731) on :
I was always upset by the fact that it's revealed Bean dies in the first chapter of the book. To be honest, I don't really care about his children. The same way I didn't really care about his unknown son "Achilles" and how Ender turned him.
(Side note: I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever read. Ender loses the fight off the fact that "The real child of Bean would never hurt me", like Achilles genetics have memories.)
That being said, at the end of the Ender series when they discovered the cure for the Piggies, I always just assumed they would use the same method to create a cure for Bean's disease. Really sad OSC couldn't capitalize on that point to save Bean.
Posted by KirKis (Member # 12454) on :
Just because Ender died doesn't mean Bean had to die. I can see how Bean follows in Ender's footsteps... Ender dies but lives on with his child Peter and Bean dies but lives on with his Beanie Babies.
Still... who likes it when their hero dies and the story continues on... *sad*
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I still don't see a big plot disconnect between Jane and Bean/Beanie Babies. They are a little pre-occupide on Lusitania, what with a virus trying to kill them, Star Congress trying to kill them, and fleet of warship coming to kill them, etc....
Plus, as I point out, the genetic modification that created Bean is 3,000 years old. That is a huge span of time, and I just don't see it as technologically relevant. They are already capable of far more complex genetic modification as can be seen in the people of Path.
I also don't see what is going on on Lusitania as relavant to Bean or his kids. At least, not at the moment.
Now, once the immediate danger is over, and the people of Lusitania are settled again. Then I think it is time for them to expand their thoughts on the applications of what they have learned. Then it may occur to them to think about Bean and his kids.
Val is still around, she lived through the last Bugger War, she helped write a history of Old!Peter and Bean. It could occur to her to have Jame check on the status of the Beanie Babies and set them on a course to Lusitania. Or it could be that the Beanie Babies find out about the events on Lusitania on their own. Perhaps the Ansible going down in the efforts to kill Jane alerted them to Jane and Ender/Val/etc.... At that point they may initiate communication.
But we are stuck with the Time Dilation thing. Perhaps the Beanies heard about the conflict early on, before Val started on here journey to Lusitania. That would put the Beanies 30 years closer to arriving at Lusitania.
Perhaps, they are on their way, but will not arrive in a reasonable time. Jane could track down their location, send someone with whom she has a Philotic connection, then transport them to Lusitania.
These are not impossible complication to overcome. Yes, certainly they are plot points that need overcoming, but overcoming them is not that difficult.
I personally don't see any need during the conflict on Lusitania to contact the Beanies. But now that things have settled down, I can see people's thought turning in that direction.
Further, just as I suspect, in Ender's mind, all these voices from the past are long dead. I futher suspect in the minds of the Beanies, all the many voices from the past are considered equally dead.
Then, events occur which pull those voices and those people from the past into the present. Then is it simply a matter of getting them all together.
I'm sure it will work out fine.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
On a lighter note.. 4 days until release!
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
Woohoo! I preordered - hopefully it gets here soon. Actually, I preordered four copies - one for me, and one for each of the OSC fans in my family. :-)
Posted by Kelly1101 (Member # 12562) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willster328: I was always upset by the fact that it's revealed Bean dies in the first chapter of the book. To be honest, I don't really care about his children. The same way I didn't really care about his unknown son "Achilles" and how Ender turned him.
(Side note: I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever read. Ender loses the fight off the fact that "The real child of Bean would never hurt me", like Achilles genetics have memories.)
That being said, at the end of the Ender series when they discovered the cure for the Piggies, I always just assumed they would use the same method to create a cure for Bean's disease. Really sad OSC couldn't capitalize on that point to save Bean.
Yeah, I'm pretty bummed about Bean dying.
But, his kids may turn out to be cool. It's not a reason to stop reading, for me.
Posted by Jeffg (Member # 12742) on :
Hey give a spoiler alert would ya! Not cool
Posted by la.SOMA (Member # 10608) on :
Can't wait to get home - where my copy should be waiting on my doorstep. I'm going to read the first two chapters from IGMS again on my lunchbreak.
Posted by n (Member # 12718) on :
Is it out already ? I will have to wait anyway...
I was about to respond to salcedocine, but KirKis wrote nearly the same what I would have, so I gave up. As for my native language, it is Polish (hooray for thinking in seven grammatical cases - actually makes thinking in other languages so much easier).
Some time ago I was re-reading the Shadow series and found unnerving. There was a sentence in 4th chapter of the SotG (hope I abbreviated it correctly), roughly translated from Polish to English as: each second of Ender's life aboard the ship was a week for Bean.
I am not a mathematician, so please, correct me if I am wrong.
1 second = "a week". Let's assume, roughly, that a week is 6 days, not 7. 6 [days] *24 [hours] * 3600 [seconds in an hour] = 518400. Let me generously cut off that 18400 and round it down to half a million. So 1 subjective second equals to 500000 (let us call them objective for the sake of simplicity) seconds.
Ender flew for over a year. He should be half a million years later, not mere thousands.
Also, when thinking about relativity, physics and such in the Enderverse, I remembered Jane pushing the ship (or should I say 'pod'?) to Outside and back... but with a speed when pulled back. The instance of which I am talking about is the catching of the missile aiming for Lusitania, where Jane gave the pod exactly the same speed as the projectile.
So Jane can speed up or slow down things, big deal. Well, yes. Because it would seem that as she moves objects in or Out, they are translated to some electronic (or organic in the case of Mother Trees [sorry, I have no idea what the proper term is]) data. And the speed is written there as well, so she can modify it. She could, therefore, effortlessly (if we substract the mental and energetical costs of pulling something through the Outside) give things speed of light or even greater (unless physics intervenes somehow - but at which point, if it does?).
Funnily enough, as far as I know (but again, I do make mistakes and misconceptions), Einstein's theory did not prohibit moving faster than light - just crossing the speed barrier. If something does go faster than light (the theoreticised particles - tachyons)... well, it cannot slow down to less than lightspeed.
Sorry for apparent theft of the topic .
Posted by BigDaddy (Member # 12970) on :
Just thought I'd make a note of it. Shadows in Flight is out. I haven't read it yet. I'm currently reading Earth Unaware.
Heh... All this bickering about plot holes and whatnot with Jane and the Beanie Babies. There is a lot of criticism going on. I haven't read Shadows in Flight yet but I'm sure he fills in whatever holes need to be filled or if not it's nothing that another First Meetings wont cure.
Posted by enderUfan (Member # 13549) on :
Mr. Card, Do you have an ETA for the next book to finish off where Shadows in Flight and Children of the MInd ended? I would reallllllly want to know how it all ends, if it ends.
Thanks!
Posted by Ecko (Member # 14112) on :
Bean only played the Mind Game once, Jane is hardly aware of his genetic existence.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
![[The Wave]](graemlins/thewave.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
). ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
And I'm just about dyin waiting for the sequels to the Mithermages and Pathfinder series. And I think that he has a lot more storytelling up his sleeve without going back and rehashing old books he's already written.![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
and why must the reason for anything be stated directly in order to satisfy? If there are plausible reasons, you can assume whatever you like- the story is not responsible for accounting for all its characters, or all of their actions, at all times.