I'm a new poster here but I've been lurking and reading this board for a bit. I just finished "Children of the Mind" for the first time and...I really did not understand it. In fact, I hated it. It seemed like an egregious departure from every other OSC book that I have ever read (my favorites of his are Pastwatch, Speaker for the Dead, Ender's Game, and Enchantment). Now, I love the first three Ender books, and I did make sure to read this one right after reading Xenocide (which I enjoyed).
If anyone here likes this book I am humbly asking for help to appreciate it. I am sincere, I don't just want to tear the book down. I hated it so much because I felt confused and even betrayed. I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but I felt like the book must have been written by someone else, about some other characters and not the ones I had come to know.
I'll try to keep this simple for now and stick to the main issue I had with this book:
The characters.
Strong characterization is why I love OSC so much. He is a deeply ethical and empathetic author and that comes through in most of the books I have read. But these characters don't seem real and many of them seem unrelated to who they were in previous books.
Young Valentine and Peter. I never bought the notion that they were empty vessels merely reflecting Ender's deep unconscious and not people all on their own. I'm sorry, but they had their own experiences, relationships, ideas and emotions. In both this book and Xenocide, more weight is given to the theory that the descalador virus is raman than to the idea that Valentine and Peter might be. Well at least Peter got to live, as some kind of combination of himself and Ender. But Valentine was just killed.
I cannot appreciate her torture and death. Jane getting a body wasn't worth the destruction of this girl. There is a prolonged emotional torture scene that goes on until Valentine "dies" and Jane awakens. Jane's long "coming-of-age" story did not emotionally resonate with me because I was still caught up in the crappy way it came about. But no one in the book really cared. Oh, there is some lip service given to the notion that Miro might care (when he's not stricken by love of Jane). But not only was Miro the one who tore her apart, he was also the one who had the grand idea that she should give up her body in the first place. And she was justifiably angry about that, I thought. I mean, SHE'S HER OWN PERSON, I don't care what OSC thinks! I don't care about aiua this or aiua that, this Valentine is a person. So when everyone just decided (without her input) that she had to go so Jane could have her body, and then they made it happen in such a gut-wrenching manner, I was horrified. The book claims that Jane has her memories and so Valentine is still alive somehow, but Jane still seems exactly like she always was, with no input from Valentine's personality at all (except that she loves Miro, but she would anyway since she's known him so long, while Valentine ought to be mad at him at least). Nope, Valentine was completely gone as far as I could tell, and that felt like murder to me!
Ender is also given amazingly short-shrift. It felt like OSC was tired of Ender, but I, the reader, was not! I thought he died without much fanfare. Why wasn't anyone trying to actually save his life? Why was Novinha trying to convince him that it was okay to let go? Why, he's not some doddering old man! I don't get it. Oh, wait, because as long as he lives Jane can't get a body. But it's all accomplished through lies, Novinha still loves and needs him but lies and tells him she's better off without him and he needs to let her go, and he believes that and then he's gone. What is the value in having Ender die in such a weak manner? I also have to say that I didn't really get why he was so despondent. He's said to have given up on life because he'd rather do what Peter and Valentine are doing but...when did Ender ever do those kinds of things? After the Bugger Wars he was always scholarly and people-oriented. He spent 3000 years as a Speaker and scholar. He never tackled molecular xenobiology like young Val nor did he try to manipulate governments like Peter and Wang-Mu. I don't understand why he couldn't live long and gracefully with Novinha with the Order of the Children of the Mind. They were deep and scholarly.
Then there is Plikt. Am I supposed to sympathize with her? Because I do..but I felt like the author didn't want me to. (Old) Valentine was speaking with authorial voice as she just tears Plikt apart. Plikt was supposed to be her friend, they'd lived decades together! But apparently Valentine was more sympathetic to Novinha whom she didn't even really know (and Novinha is pretty vile, sorry). The character of Plikt just seems unfinished, like she is another one who is not intended to be her own person, but is instead a foil.
On the other hand, I'll say it again, Novinha is just vile. There was a moment when I just lost it with regard to her. It was after Ender and Jane struggled over his body, and he'd thrashed around as Plikt, Novinha and Valentine tried to hold him down. Unconsciously he hits all three of them and they all end up bruised. Here he was going through a great struggle, after lying comatose and close to death for who knows how long. What kind of wife's first words are, "I had a husband once who beat me ?" What the hey?? What kind of woman is completely unconcerned about this man who has loved her for decades, but instead focuses on how SHE has been wronged? Novinha does, and that was no isolated incident. I was left completely mystified as to how Ender Wiggin could not only marry this woman, but give up his life for her. After all, he decides to die basically because she tells him she doesn't need him anymore. The real mystery is why OSC would think a reader should find this to be noble or good in any way? This is why I just didn't understand the book.
The last thing I'll mention is the people of Pacifica. This whole part of the book had a bad effect on me. I was not inspired by them, I did not feel uplifted or enlightened by their spirituality. Rather, I thought they were dreadfully condescending, hypocritical, thin-skinned, mean-spirited, and self-righteous people. And this is terrible, because it's obvious that OSC really felt strongly about bringing Polynesian culture into this book and honoring it but it had the opposite effect on me. The jolly man who laughs to keep from killing people because they unknowingly offended his religious sensibilities? Grace Drinker, who is very condescending, hoity-toity and says things like, "I'm sorry you're such a fool", "I wouldn't have thought a girl like you could be so weak"? Malu, who is said not to be "vain or impressed with ceremony", yet is offended if people speak anything impertinent (even if they're just saying "he's speaking the high language") and demands all manner of ceremony, including having the roof under which he eats burned so no one else eats under it? Here are Wang-Mu and Peter, two rational characters, and they are weeping over this man and trembling in his presence and...but why?? All of the Polynesian characters lacked empathy for anyone else. I was completely disconnected from these parts of the book, and they're pretty important parts.
Well that's only a few of my issues with COTM. The metaphysical stuff and the resolutions all fell pretty flat for me, but I could give those another go if only I could understand what's going on with these characters.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by danila: Young Valentine and Peter. I never bought the notion that they were empty vessels merely reflecting Ender's deep unconscious and not people all on their own. I'm sorry, but they had their own experiences, relationships, ideas and emotions. In both this book and Xenocide, more weight is given to the theory that the descalador virus is raman than to the idea that Valentine and Peter might be. Well at least Peter got to live, as some kind of combination of himself and Ender. But Valentine was just killed.
I think the theory was that they each had their own consciousness but that the loss of one of them was not a big deal since they were all tied to the same aiua. I don't buy that as a valid excuse for letting one conscious being die.
I actually agree with basically everything you said. CotM was my least favorite book in the Ender series. I never sympathized with Novinha and Ender's death was awfully lame.
Posted by Boxcard (Member # 11717) on :
All of the issues with Young Valentine that you disliked, I found rather moving. The whole situation was one of intense emotional circumstance, and the simple truth of life is that sacrifices must be made.
Would Peter have ever become his own "person" if young Val's consciousness hadn't been replaced by Jane's? Maybe they would have existed forever as yin-yang "opposite" reflections of Ender's soul for the duration of their physical existence, and to be honest, I didn't like either character as the "half people" they were while Ender lived.
But he died. Which is something that just happens, a truth no one can deny, regardless of whether it fits your aesthetic values. I found his death intensely beautiful and accurate in it's representation of the people around him. People are not perfect beings, especially when it comes to their reaction to death.
I'm sure you didn't expect Novinha to suddenly act like Ender's death would be the end of the world, as it wasn't even the end of Ender. Peter clearly inherited all his goodness, and with the same soul inside of him, how is he NOT Ender? His face looks different? His memories don't match?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
danila:
quote:I mean, SHE'S HER OWN PERSON, I don't care what OSC thinks! I don't care about aiua this or aiua that, this Valentine is a person.
I think CoTM hinges on the fact that young Peter and young Valentine aren't actually complete people. There is one human-sized aiúa (OK, maybe Ender has a big one for a human, but it's still only suited to run one body) in charge of three bodies. It's not up to the task, and therefore the situation is not sustainable. You have the weird one dimensional puppet-people and a withering overstretched Ender.
And yet the fact that young Val is an extreme embodiment of virtue is what suits her to make the sacrifice that she does.
What I'm saying is that if you accept the birth of young Val and Peter, and what it means about their nature, then the subsequent events make sense. Ender's aiúa couldn't do a good job running three people, and needed to be re-consolidated into one body. For Ender to kind of wither and die because so much of what he cares about (both actions, and character) is happening outside of his body makes sense, and between Val and Peter it makes sense that Val gives up the body for Jane.
I think the characterization is spot-on when you accept that they aren't meant to individually be complete characters - until after Ender and Young Val "die".
I also think we aren't meant to like or empathize with Novinha. I think the point of her character and her relationship with Ender is that only someone with the outsized empathy of Ender Wiggin could actually love and tolerate her despite her underlying sourness. (We mere 21st Century humans - lacking a genetic heritage engineered for supreme military command ability - wouldn't be up to the task.)
I don't know enough about Polynesian culture to critically evaluate OSC's future extrapolation of it. However, for what it's worth, I think he's attempting to show that there is somewhat-hidden complexity there - that you need to look beneath the surface to understand and effectively deal with them. It's been a while since I read CoTM but I didn't find his portrayal of this culture any more shallow or confused than the other cultures he portrayed in the Ender series. (Also, any inconsistencies between Pacifica and present cultures are easily explained by the fact that 3000 years have passed.)
I don't think the characterization falls short. I think it's up to par - in fact I actually think it's a well done book. I wonder if you might not like the implications of the aiúa and the "outside" as conceived by OSC - it seems you rejected what OSC was trying to say about the fundamental nature of several of the characters.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
OSC said at a booksiging that he tried to read COTM and couldn't get through it. COTM weirds me out for many of the reasons mentioned. The redeeming quality is perhaps the one line at the end where the military commander breaks down and says he was trying to do what Ender would have done. Peter replies that it was funny, he was doing the same thing.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"OSC said at a booksiging that he tried to read COTM and couldn't get through it"
What does this mean? That he didn't like the book? He has stated elsewhere that he pretty much never reads through his books front to back. Did he say why he couldn't get through it?
Just curious. I'm slightly tempted to defend the book but I'm going to try to resist the temptation (at least going forward) since obviously the merit is in the eye of the beholder.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I enjoyed reading Children of the Mind. But it's been so long since I've read it or Xenocide that I don't really remember why specifically.
I just reread Speaker not that long ago. Perhaps I should return to the last two books in the saga as well.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Let's face the simple fact here. Ender is such a larger than life character that his death, no matter how written, was never going to appease everyone. Mr. Card wrote the story the way he thought best. Whether you liked it or not is entirely up to you. Personally I thought it was fitting.
I have to say though, disliking the book so much that you write an essay about how much you dislike it and posting it on a website funded by the author that wrote it is a very bold way of starting your tenure here.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*waves* Hi scotneb!!!
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Hi Banna!
I've been thinking about you lately. I caved in and gave that Care Bear to my son. He treats it very well and calls it "Daddy's Care Bear."
Thanks again for that!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
awwww Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I have to say though, disliking the book so much that you write an essay about how much you dislike it and posting it on a website funded by the author that wrote it is a very bold way of starting your tenure here.
I think MY first post here, way back when, was an essay explaining why I thought Alvin Journeyman was inferior to the books that had gone before it. *blush*
Posted by Zerix (Member # 11725) on :
I enjoyed the book. Children of the mind was actually my favorite book in the ender quartet. Some of the reasons that you disliked the book are the same reasons i loved it.
I thought young Val becoming Jane was very tragic and sad, but that improved the overall story.
I agree with Boxcard on the matter of Enders death, and Scifibum on the matter of Novinha, so i wont expand on either of those matters.
As for Plikt, I sympathized with her as well, but thats the beauty of books, you get to chose which characters you like, or sympothize with, the author doesnt chose for you.
I only wish I knew what happened next.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
quote:I agree with Boxcard on the matter of Enders death, and Scifibum on the matter of Novinha, so i wont expand on either of those matters.
You know, there really isn't any tangible limit on the amount of words you can post here. This is really the best place and time to expand on your thoughts.
I'm genuinely curious.
...and welcome! Posted by Boxcard (Member # 11717) on :
Ah, Plikt, I just about fell in love with her.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I really don't think that Young Val and Peter were their own people--I saw them as "images" of Ender's past brought to life in a very unnatural way, and the events following were there to "set things right."
I do value your interpretation, though, Danila, and I hope you'll keep posting so all of us can get a little more perspective.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I just finished listening to COTM on audio book last week. I actually listened through all 4 of the Ender books. Ender's Game, Speaker and the first half of Xenocide were pretty good. As soon as they start talking about the philotes and going outside they lose me. I think that COTM should have been condensed and added into Xenocide and ended the series right there. COTM was a horrible book and I strained to get through that.
And the whole Japanese story line in Xenocide was horrible too. I couldn't take it anymore and skipped the chapters with them in it. Convoluted monologue about what gods want them to do what and for what reasons and the stupidity to believe that nonsense. Ugh.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I also tend to skim over the Japanese and Polynesian subplots in Xenocide and CotM because they bore me to death--that's just not the type of story I like to read. I read OSC for his characters, generally, and I have to disagree with danila and say that I thought the character story is what I liked the most about Xenocide and CotM. It's hard for me to see any discrepancies between CotM and earlier books as far as characterization goes, because I think the characters in CotM simply keep following the paths they were set on in Xenocide.
I agree with stihl1 that Xenocide/CotM should really be one book. If you cut out the sideplots it would work rather nicely...but to each his own; I know some people enjoy that part of the books the most.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I'm one who adored the stuff on Path. I first came across the chapters about Gloriously Bright in Analog and found them amazing--I had decided a third of the way through this was going to be my new favorite story by Card. I had no idea it was an Ender story and was shocked when Ender showed up halfway through.
I can imagine someone buying an Ender book being frustrated by them wanting to get back to Ender, but not knowing Ender was even going to show up, I found the character and story amazing.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Malu, who is said not to be "vain or impressed with ceremony", yet is offended if people speak anything impertinent (even if they're just saying "he's speaking the high language") and demands all manner of ceremony, including having the roof under which he eats burned so no one else eats under it?
You have interesting points. I don't dislike Children of the Mind except for some lines that BUGGED ME SO MUCH. I think Malu didn't really insist on that sort of ceremony or care about it. I think his people were more concerned with stuff like that than he was and he was ready to break the rules as soon as possible more than his people were. They were just entangled in legalism and he wasn't.
As for Plikt, I thought it sucked that Valentine smacked her for telling the truth. Novinhua really did think Ender could protect her from all the misery in her life. That's too much to put on one man. I hated the speech Valentine made to Novinhua, because there's no way staying with a man who beats the crap out of you, no matter how much you mouth off to him is a good thing for children. It isn't. Gregor alone was super violent, trying to stab people when he was just a little kid and the rest of the family were disfunctional as a result of them being raised by Novinha's first husband. I didn't mcuh care for the man that really fathered her kids because how is he not taking responsibility for kids he helped make? Or did she hide that fact from him like all of this other important stuff she never told? She could have at least said to Miro, "Uh, Miro, you are making out with your sister, stop doing that." But she did not as stories have to have their drama unlike real life which has to be a lot neater.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I loved the Path stuff. I thought the Polynesian stuff was less compelling, but I thought the Path chapters were the best thing about Xenocide. Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Ditto.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Oh, you understood Children of the Mind just fine! You simply didn't like it, which is fair.
For what it's worth, I was no more putting forward the Polynesians as an ideal than I was the Japanese-based or Chinese-based or, for that matter, American-based cultures in the far future. In fact, I have never attempted a "utopia" and I dislike other writers' attempts at creating them.
But it's quite possible for me to think that a culture I'm making up is interesting, while readers remain uninterested in them. That's just going to happen sometimes and there's nothing I can do about it except create and write about every society as well as I know how.
As for the Young Valentine and Young Peter, from the moment of their creation each would have its own memories, and just as we become different personalities in different contexts (i.e., receptionist vs. parent or doctor vs. sibling or golfer vs. accountant), so Ender's aiua would express different personalities through YV and YP. However, neither one would be "Ender" and neither one would be Valentine or Peter.
Hey, it's a weird experiment to have multiple characters operated by a single soul. But then, I ended that situation as quickly as I could by killing off Ender, didn't I? And then YV and YP became different people all over again.
When I write Shadows in Flight, in which YP plays a major role, one thing is certain: He will NOT "be" Ender. But he will be a person who makes his life decisions from the same deep moral/causal core. Different experiences will shape him differently, of course.
what I will NOT do is attempt to show the Ender-in-YP. What a boring book that would be. Ender-in-YP will be an issue that the character himself will speculate about, but the STORY will be about the Descolada planet and Bean's surviving children and Ender-in-Peter will be an important character in that story.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm really thrilled that you will be writing more in the far future end of the Enderverse.
I think traveling "outside" and being able to imagine things into existence is a bit of deus ex machina, but I'm sure you'll keep it under control. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Aw, man. Now instead of jonesing for Ender in Exile, I'm jonesing for Ender in Exile AND Shadows in Flight.
If you drop any hints about Master Alvin I might have to go into detox. Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
The Path stuff is my favorite part about Xenocide.
In fact, it's why I like Xenocide more than Speaker for the Dead.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Really interesting stuff to know. I'm actually quite excited for Shadows in Flight now.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Ender-in-YP will be an issue that the character himself will speculate about, but the STORY will be about the Descolada planet and Bean's surviving children and Ender-in-Peter will be an important character in that story.
*Faints from happiness
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Children was a difficult book for me to read. Actually, almost the entire adult trilogy is difficult for me to read. Things move so slowly in some places and so quickly in others. I have found, though, that I enjoy the audio versions of them more. I think when it's on audio, the rough spots just don't matter as much because I'm not doing the work of reading all of it. I also don't try to follow all the details as specifically.
On the other hand, there are ideas that are both difficult, strange, and traumatic in the book. These don't go away with the audio reading, and I can understand how they would make some people dislike the book. The whole Plikt/Val scene just about wanted to make me vomit. I absolutely loath the person Novinha grew up to be, and wept inside for the child she was and the woman she might have been. However, even though all this is painful, I suppose it rings in me because it's so TRUE. This is the way people really behave. They strike out at each other irrationally. Even the best and most sympathetic people are never perfect in real life. People don't always say or do the right things in the right situations. Heck, that's where most of real tragedy comes from. It's heart breaking that Ender doesn't go on to live "Happily Ever After", but... the truth is, no one ever does.
Posted by String (Member # 6435) on :
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Children was a difficult book for me to read. Actually, almost the entire adult trilogy is difficult for me to read. Things move so slowly in some places and so quickly in others. I have found, though, that I enjoy the audio versions of them more. I think when it's on audio, the rough spots just don't matter as much because I'm not doing the work of reading all of it. I also don't try to follow all the details as specifically.
On the other hand, there are ideas that are both difficult, strange, and traumatic in the book. These don't go away with the audio reading, and I can understand how they would make some people dislike the book. The whole Plikt/Val scene just about wanted to make me vomit. I absolutely loath the person Novinha grew up to be, and wept inside for the child she was and the woman she might have been. However, even though all this is painful, I suppose it rings in me because it's so TRUE. This is the way people really behave. They strike out at each other irrationally. Even the best and most sympathetic people are never perfect in real life. People don't always say or do the right things in the right situations. Heck, that's where most of real tragedy comes from. It's heart breaking that Ender doesn't go on to live "Happily Ever After", but... the truth is, no one ever does.
Nope, the best you can hope for is "Happy more than not ever after" Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
I actually really didnt get it until the second time I read it... After that its a lot more clear... Although, I agree with earlier posts, Ender the xenocide Speaker for the Dead really could have died more dramatically then shrivelling up and blowing away... I didnt like that... It actually made me giggle just a little and I never liked the character Novihna, like, at all... I did like how the Peter/Endeer Jane/Valentine thing panned out though.... Hopefully the next books clear things up a bit for us...
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I admit that while I had to stop and think to my self, "What?" and re-read a bit to make sure I understood it, but I found Children to be a very entertaining read. I want to see the story continue, but I recognize that it will take quite a large effort to conceptualize a continuation to an already complicated book. I'm willing to let Mr. Card take all the time he needs.
Posted by Clandestineguitarplayer (Member # 11571) on :
100% agreed on that one Nick... I would much rather wait for him to continue it having thought it over and over again than read some gung-ho shoot-em-up and save the day book... I love Cards' depth into the problems the protagonists face and thats the reason I read the books... He has a lot of pressure to make it fit and there will be a lot of people severely disappointed at the idea of him losing the plot and saying things that lack luster, he has created a very impressive series and he has a responsibility to bring it home just as impressively... Much like the Harry Potter series... I liked that ending...
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I don't think Ender is out of the game in Children of the Mind, he is acting through surrogates - young Peter and young Val.
Ender is tired of the fighting and conflict, the political intrigue and war. He just wants to be with his wife and live a quiet life. But, since when has Ender Wiggen ever got what he wanted?
I think he is tired. He is tired of carrying the weight of guilt of the destruction of the buggers, and equally tired of carrying the weight of their resurrection. He wants to be normal, to have and do normal things. He wants to enjoy his wife and family, but life and circumstances won't let him.
How many times do you have to save the world before the world finally allows you some peace? I think his many years on Lusitania waiting for Val to arrive we the best he's ever had and the closest he's ever come to peace.
Yet, despite the limited peace he has, conflict can't stop rearing it's ugly head.
When Novina leaves him, that is the last straw. Ender subconsciously creates his surrogates, and moves to the monistary to be with his wife. Let others save the world.
Yet, even when acting through his young surrogates, it is still a strain on him, it is still wearing him down. One man can only be stretched just so thin before he starts to lose himself. And I think that is just what happened. Ender could only maintain a limited focus. When it was completely on Peter, Ender and Val suffered. When Val found a purpose, and Peter maintained his value and purpose, then just Ender suffered under the miserable strain of it all.
Eventually, maintaining three separate selves became too much for him, and he had to shut down the only self he could really control. The only reason he hung around at all was because of Novina. She had already been abandon so many times in her life. Ender would endure any suffering for no reason other than to prevent her from suffering more.
But Ender had lived his life. He had fulfilled his great purpose. The Formics lived again. His kids were grown. He and Jane were separated. It was his time to go, though he was not a terribly old man, he had fulfilled his destiny twice over. And when Novina release him from his suffering, he simply left his body.
Yet in leaving his body, the three broken parts of himself were reunited. Young Val wasn't lost or abandon, she lived again in Jane. She was Jane and young Val, and was more than the sum of her parts.
All of Ender joined to make Peter whole and complete. Something that even Peter knew he was not until all of Ender came to him.
It seems to me, everyone got what they wanted. Novina learned that all loss was not bad. Ender's suffering and guilt were at an end, an end of a life well and worthy of living. Peter live on. Young Val as New Jane lived on.
So, Ender didn't spend that book lying in a bed. That was him who went out in the form of young Peter and young Val and did the valuable work that must be done. But it left Ender to attend to the one thing that meant something to him, his wife. That was a great sacrifice on his part, because the strain of maintain three 'selves' eventually killed him.
It is a very sad story. Even now, after all these years, I get a little misty as I tell it.
Steve/bluewizard
[ September 20, 2008, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: BlueWizard ]
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Wow Bluewizard you wrote more than OSC, you have more insight into the books than the author.
Hee hee hee, I loved COTM, but liked Speaker even better. Xenocide just would not pull me in, easily my least favorite.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Oh, you understood Children of the Mind just fine! You simply didn't like it, which is fair.
For what it's worth, I was no more putting forward the Polynesians as an ideal than I was the Japanese-based or Chinese-based or, for that matter, American-based cultures in the far future. In fact, I have never attempted a "utopia" and I dislike other writers' attempts at creating them.
But it's quite possible for me to think that a culture I'm making up is interesting, while readers remain uninterested in them. That's just going to happen sometimes and there's nothing I can do about it except create and write about every society as well as I know how.
As for the Young Valentine and Young Peter, from the moment of their creation each would have its own memories, and just as we become different personalities in different contexts (i.e., receptionist vs. parent or doctor vs. sibling or golfer vs. accountant), so Ender's aiua would express different personalities through YV and YP. However, neither one would be "Ender" and neither one would be Valentine or Peter.
Hey, it's a weird experiment to have multiple characters operated by a single soul. But then, I ended that situation as quickly as I could by killing off Ender, didn't I? And then YV and YP became different people all over again.
When I write Shadows in Flight, in which YP plays a major role, one thing is certain: He will NOT "be" Ender. But he will be a person who makes his life decisions from the same deep moral/causal core. Different experiences will shape him differently, of course.
what I will NOT do is attempt to show the Ender-in-YP. What a boring book that would be. Ender-in-YP will be an issue that the character himself will speculate about, but the STORY will be about the Descolada planet and Bean's surviving children and Ender-in-Peter will be an important character in that story.
Drools and awaits this great story. I have like all the Ender Series. Some more than others, but I have liked them all. Since you have been posting more again, I assume that means another project is finished. I need more OSC books. I finished Keeper of Dreams and am awaiting the next novel!
Posted by CHeuer (Member # 11757) on :
To help clarify the issues with Peter, Ender, and Val (I always refer to young Valentine as Val, and old one as Valentine), you have to look at them as though they were computers. The characters weren't sure if Val and Peter were computers, only able to do what the user Ender said they could do, or if they were users themselves, merely linked to Ender, if that helped you at all. As the story progresses however, you begin to see more and more traits that the individuals are in fact individuals, but they keep falling back on lame excuses, such as "Oh yes, I did a good thing, but it was for bad motives, so I'm still a bad person."
As for Jane destroying Val, it didn't really come off as that to me. For me, it was more like a merger between two different people. There are traits that you could still see of Val in Jane, but since Jane's Auia had more strength to it, you see more of Jane's personality. Basically to me it seemed as though they became a group inside a body, as opposed to one personality completely eradicating another.
As for the death of Ender, originally I believed that this book was meant to end somewhere closer to where Ender dies. Even Card himself comments that originally it was going to be two seperate books, thus it would make sense that the killing of ender would have been a fitting end to the series, but this left to many questions left unanswered, but not enough for a second book, imo. The reason that they lied to Ender was because throughout the series you see that Ender is becoming more and more passive in the plot, and in the final book, it got to the point where Ender had split himself, and that the other characters could easily see that Ender's job was done. He had protected his family, saved the world, and was ready to go, but was only clinging on to life due to the belief that the people he loved still needed him to the point that they couldn't function without him. Thus they lied to him, but at the same time didn't, because they were just helping him to realize that his job was done and that they loved him for it.
Plikt I feel was a metaphor, not just a foil, because you look at her and you can get this vibe that she represents people who latch on to others just for the thing that they need most from them, and then dismiss all that they can do for them.
Nov wasn't really as vile as a lot of people make her out to be, it's just her character is of a introverted trend, thus she will perceive everything as being her fault, or being related to her, because she controls what happens to her.
As for the Polynesian culture reference, I feel as though it really fit in with Peter acting the way he was with his constant self-despising, because to me it felt like the people around him were acting the way that he thought he was.
On a side note, Can't wait for more of the Ender/Bean/Peter books to come out, this is by far the book series that influenced me the most as a young reader, when I first read it for plot, and then read it for meaning 4 years later (meh, I'm still growing up).
[ September 19, 2008, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: CHeuer ]
Posted by danila (Member # 11707) on :
Sorry it took so long to reply. I re-read the book. Thanks to everyone who shared their perspectives, fellow fans and author. Some issues are resolved for me (the way Ender ended makes more sense now, BlueWizard's post helped immensely), and some I don't think ever will be (Valentine).
Perhaps OSC actually did too good a job with the issue of personhood (a strong theme in all of the Ender books, and a driving theme in my life). For me, just as the hive queen and the piggies and Jane are fully people, so was Valentine. I could not identify any aspects of her personality that were "Ender." It's too simplistic to say she's all the good parts of him. Ender had many virtuous qualities that are not present in Valentine, and she has some that he has never displayed.
quote: Peter clearly inherited all his goodness, and with the same soul inside of him, how is he NOT Ender? His face looks different? His memories don't match?
Having different memories makes you a different person, absolutely. So he started making memories as a young adult and not a baby like the rest of us. That makes him alien, but not less of a person. I am interested to see how he's going to be different now that Ender is supposedly more a part of him. He was already doing good things on Pacifica before Ender died. He was already evolving as a person as we all must. So I saw him as being a whole person already, because only whole people evolve and Peter evolved, in my opinion.
Valentine did not choose to sacrifice, she was depressed into a suicide. She had no one to fight for her, so as the empathetic reader I automatically took on that role. The book made me upset because the other characters did a horrible thing to her. HOW was she incomplete? HOW was she not living a life? She LOVED for goodness sakes! She dreamed and desired and loved, dreams and desires and a love Ender did not share, they were hers and not any part of him. AHH it pains me to even think of what happened to her, I can't help but put myself in her shoes. I cannot experience the detachment of seeing her as any part of any other person. I hate Miro and Jane and the rest because of what they did to her. And if I hate them I have to hate the book.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by danila: Valentine did not choose to sacrifice, she was depressed into a suicide. She had no one to fight for her, so as the empathetic reader I automatically took on that role. The book made me upset because the other characters did a horrible thing to her. HOW was she incomplete? HOW was she not living a life? She LOVED for goodness sakes! She dreamed and desired and loved, dreams and desires and a love Ender did not share, they were hers and not any part of him. AHH it pains me to even think of what happened to her, I can't help but put myself in her shoes. I cannot experience the detachment of seeing her as any part of any other person. I hate Miro and Jane and the rest because of what they did to her. And if I hate them I have to hate the book.
The way I see it, if she was really a whole being in her own right and independent of Ender than what was done to her couldn't have worked. A (for lack of a better term ) "real" person can't simply will herself to not exist, and probably isn't going to want to just because you say some mean things to her.
And I think it's pretty harsh to hate Miro and the others considering what was at stake. They needed Jane to take Val's body to save Lusitania.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I think we need to ask ourselves, what is it that we are? What determines who and what we are? Is it this meat puppet we move around through life? Are we our bodies, or is there some spiritual essence that defines our true selves?
If you believe that our true self is our soul, then Young Val lives on. If you believe it is our body that is our full and complete essence, they young Val died.
But, I think it is clear that Card thinks we have a soul, and that Ender's soul inhabited three bodies; young Peter, young Val, and Ender's own body.
Yes, young Val had thoughts, feeling, and memories, but they were the memories that Ender gave her. In a sense, both young Val and young Peter were caricatures of there true selves. Each was an exaggeration of the characteristics that Ender attributed to them.
Remember the Real Val is still alive and well, and right there on Lusitania.
So, if our true self is our body, the young Val died. But if our true self is our soul, then Ender's soul joined the rest of his true self in Peter.
Who is to say that the thoughts, feelings, and memories of young Val were lost. Perhaps some essence of her lives on in New Jane, and some essence of her lives on in New Peter. Further, even young Val's body was not lost, she became New Jane.
So, young Val's soul wasn't lost, her body wasn't lost, so how then is she lost or dead.
Again, remember the real Val with the real Val's soul still lives.
Young Val was merely a meat puppet animated by Ender's soul and given memories from Ender's imagination.
I do have some sympathy for young Val as a character, and even Card has sympathy for her, as the story discusses the dilemma she faces. If she surrenders herself to Jane, then she as she knows, feels, and lives herself will be lost. It is very sad, and I have a great deal of sympathy for young Val as I think the storyteller intended me to have.
But young Val's true self was not lost. Young Val's true self, her soul, belonged to Ender. She was Ender's surrogates in the world, while his body tended to the important things that mattered to him; his wife and their relationship.
Again, I think that we were meant to feel deep sympathy and sadness for young Val's situation. But I also think we were intended to realize that ultimately young Val was really Ender, just as young Peter was really Ender.
None of them could ever be whole until Ender's soul united itself. And in the end, that is exactly what happened, they all joined in Peter and were whole again.
Neither young Val or young Peter were capable of sustaining their own existence. When Ender's attention waned from one, that one began to fade. When the demands became to great to sustain his attention on all three of himself, then Ender himself began to fade.
Those other two bodies, were not independent beings, they could not self-sustain, they were merely extensions of Ender.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
I really enjoyed reading CotM. It definitely ranks up there with being one of my favorites. The whole concept of inside/outside and auias I found facinating as it very well could be the truth. I had a hard time understanding the part about the expansion of the universe, but that was do more to me just accepting it and moving on than any lack from the author to explain it well.
I was extremely caught up in the tragedy and struggle playing out between all the characters. So much so that by the end, I found a new liking for YP, a complete sadness and loss for YV, and a satisfaction that Ender faded away instead of just slowly dieing in bed.
This book blew my mind on so many different levels, but I can understand how it could be a hard book to stomach. I cannot and willnot try to sway anyone's opinion on this book. All I can say is give it another chance and maybe when you read through again, you'll come away with a different taste in your mouth. It's really up to each reader to find something to take away that they enjoy. Posted by stone_maiden (Member # 4071) on :
I'm not sure if anyone remembers the references in Ender in Exile, but when Ender talked about (or thought about) Valentine being really benevolent and Peter being a domineering (or some other shade of malevolent), I was totally reminded of how Ender brought youngpeter and youngval into being from outside to inside. He completely compartmentalized them in his subconscious, even though he obviously knew who they really were.
Anyway, I can't wait for Shadows in Flight to come out. Obviously I want to know what happens to Bean's children and the descolada planet as well as youngpeter and the rest of the gang.
I hope I didn't state the obvious, but the idea of Bean's kids meeting everyone else (Miro, Jane, etc.) is really blowing my mind right now.
Posted by All4Nothing (Member # 11601) on :
I'm with you SM.....and it was because of either this post or a post elsewhere that I thought of that at that exact time.
Posted by tmservo (Member # 8552) on :
I'll admit it, I've always found this series (Speaker, Xenocide, Children of the Mind) to be Card's most ambitious and rewarding efforts of his career. I've now had the pleasure to say I've read everything he's put into print, but I've often thought these books had more of an introspective investigation of self then anything else he's put out before or since.
quote: Young Valentine and Peter. I never bought the notion that they were empty vessels merely reflecting Ender's deep unconscious and not people all on their own. I'm sorry, but they had their own experiences, relationships, ideas and emotions. In both this book and Xenocide, more weight is given to the theory that the descalador virus is raman than to the idea that Valentine and Peter might be. Well at least Peter got to live, as some kind of combination of himself and Ender. But Valentine was just killed.
No, Peter didn't get to live. Peter WAS Ender. Ender WAS Peter. Ender was allowed to move himself forward, to extricate himself from the life he was forced to live. I thought that was something they really pushed.. maybe this "Peter" was who Ender would have been if things had just went differently. "Valentine" wasn't killed. Valentine was in the end also Ender, one part of himself. The fact that he was able to live as Peter was part of what showed he was willing to accept the part of him that was most like Valentine into his own being. Whether or not Ender could accept the truth about himself, that he was, in fact, a good person, that the part of him that was altruist and good belonged as part of his new self - Peter.
quote: Ender is also given amazingly short-shrift. It felt like OSC was tired of Ender, but I, the reader, was not! I thought he died without much fanfare. Why wasn't anyone trying to actually save his life? Why was Novinha trying to convince him that it was okay to let go? Why, he's not some doddering old man! I don't get it. Oh, wait, because as long as he lives Jane can't get a body. But it's all accomplished through lies, Novinha still loves and needs him but lies and tells him she's better off without him and he needs to let her go, and he believes that and then he's gone. What is the value in having Ender die in such a weak manner? I also have to say that I didn't really get why he was so despondent. He's said to have given up on life because he'd rather do what Peter and Valentine are doing but...when did Ender ever do those kinds of things? After the Bugger Wars he was always scholarly and people-oriented. He spent 3000 years as a Speaker and scholar. He never tackled molecular xenobiology like young Val nor did he try to manipulate governments like Peter and Wang-Mu. I don't understand why he couldn't live long and gracefully with Novinha with the Order of the Children of the Mind. They were deep and scholarly.
Who says they were lies? There are lots of things in my life now that I'm older I -wish- I would have done, I know I had a mind to do when I was younger, but I chose to do something else. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't make the same choice over again if it were presented to me. But if I could have the experience of doing all of the options that were available to me, I most certainly would. Ender had lived a long life as a tortured soul, of sorts, and of course he had buyers remorse on his life. I've never met anyone couldn't say "you know, I always wished I would have done..XYZ". The lure of being able to do those things was attractive to an older man.. "What if my life had been different?" Yes, he did the deep & scholarly thing, and the government thing, and who knows what else. But the fact that you do those things also means you have some drive to do something different. If tomorrow someone came up to me, and despite my horrible eyesight said "you want to try to fly the space shuttle?" Hell yes, I'd want to give that a try.
Novinha needed to let Ender go for her character to change.
quote:On the other hand, I'll say it again, Novinha is just vile. There was a moment when I just lost it with regard to her. It was after Ender and Jane struggled over his body, and he'd thrashed around as Plikt, Novinha and Valentine tried to hold him down. Unconsciously he hits all three of them and they all end up bruised. Here he was going through a great struggle, after lying comatose and close to death for who knows how long. What kind of wife's first words are, "I had a husband once who beat me ?" What the hey?? What kind of woman is completely unconcerned about this man who has loved her for decades, but instead focuses on how SHE has been wronged? Novinha does, and that was no isolated incident. I was left completely mystified as to how Ender Wiggin could not only marry this woman, but give up his life for her. After all, he decides to die basically because she tells him she doesn't need him anymore. The real mystery is why OSC would think a reader should find this to be noble or good in any way? This is why I just didn't understand the book.
Novinha was born, as we know, to parents who quickly died while she was a small child. She tried to prevent them from being sainted because she missed them desperately and found it terrible that everyone around her celebrated while she was mourning their death. She always felt ostracized from the community. She then felt immediately responsible for the death of her foster-care parent, per se, and felt responsible for the life course of the one she would love. And again, shamed because she was destroying her marriage, his, and the lives of her children.
Novinha was a character who always sought to control the situation. In every angle, she wanted to control. She wanted control over how her parents would be remembered. Control over information in her lab. Control over what people knew about her life, control over her children's research. Control, in the end, over Ender and what he would do next. She wanted control because she was afraid, terrified to give it up because everytime she had she had been badly hurt.
Novinha was a very tragic character. For her character to grow, Valentine pointed out that once, just once, she needed to give up control - to let someone else decide. She had twisted up and contorted her whole life trying to gain control and never got it.
quote: The last thing I'll mention is the people of Pacifica. This whole part of the book had a bad effect on me. I was not inspired by them, I did not feel uplifted or enlightened by their spirituality. Rather, I thought they were dreadfully condescending, hypocritical, thin-skinned, mean-spirited, and self-righteous people. And this is terrible, because it's obvious that OSC really felt strongly about bringing Polynesian culture into this book and honoring it but it had the opposite effect on me. The jolly man who laughs to keep from killing people because they unknowingly offended his religious sensibilities? Grace Drinker, who is very condescending, hoity-toity and says things like, "I'm sorry you're such a fool", "I wouldn't have thought a girl like you could be so weak"? Malu, who is said not to be "vain or impressed with ceremony", yet is offended if people speak anything impertinent (even if they're just saying "he's speaking the high language") and demands all manner of ceremony, including having the roof under which he eats burned so no one else eats under it? Here are Wang-Mu and Peter, two rational characters, and they are weeping over this man and trembling in his presence and...but why?? All of the Polynesian characters lacked empathy for anyone else. I was completely disconnected from these parts of the book, and they're pretty important parts.
No, Grace Drinker was beyond kind to Peter & Wamu. It seems that way to us, that she and those around her were rude because we were sympathetic with Peter. But to them, this was an important religious belief, something they held sacred. And someone just trounces in and says "ok, do something, let's meet the man, get the show on.."
For a comparitive... go to Rome and demand a meeting with the Pope. See how it works out. Or, go to Tibet and start asking to meet with the Dalai Lama and see if you can pick his brain. People will be offended. That might be an understatement. Do either and you probably risk going to jail, getting imprisoned, or beaten.
So, the fact that everyone on Pacifica is very leery of someone who wants to meet with their religious icon as an equal is not at all surprising. And the fact that the people on Pacifica are pretty aware that these people (Peter & Wamu) have been easedropping on their communications to learn this also doesn't make them the best of friends.
I can imagine that. "Hi, I've been wiretapping the phone of the Cardinal of Italy, and I know that I really need to talk to the Pope about this, because he's the one you always ask when this question comes up. So, let's skip the formality and go to the big boss."
I was actually kind of surprised once it was clear that the people of Pacifica knew what was going on that they didn't virtually throw Peter & Wamu on a spit and roast them.
The burning of the place where they were at is something done by the followers, not demanded by the man himself. And how odd would that be, really? I mean, is it any more odd or strange then burning incense at a catholic funeral? Or burning a body for a many eastern philosophy funerals, as we saw on Path?
You find them difficult because they are different; I thought that was one of the strongest points of the book that they had their own unique and important culture to them, just as Path did.. and that was part of the "100 worlds" where everyone respected and followed their own beliefs.
To OSC:
quote:what I will NOT do is attempt to show the Ender-in-YP. What a boring book that would be. Ender-in-YP will be an issue that the character himself will speculate about, but the STORY will be about the Descolada planet and Bean's surviving children and Ender-in-Peter will be an important character in that story.
True. But in the end, it's more important to remember that while it's not Ender-in-YP, it's most definitely not YP from Shadow series/etc. The character is very clearly articulated, one of your best, as both what Ender imagined him to be and what he wanted him to be; and mixed with what Ender would have done with that opportunity. He's his own man at this point, but as much as he is not Ender as we remember him - because he is Ender's Philote, he is Ender at the moral core 100%, and he is nothing, not a single part, of the Peter from any book, only the imaginations of Ender.
That's not a small writing task, how he can be both his own man and the Pinocchio creation of a memory of a child.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
quote:Originally posted by tmservo: To OSC:
quote:what I will NOT do is attempt to show the Ender-in-YP. What a boring book that would be. Ender-in-YP will be an issue that the character himself will speculate about, but the STORY will be about the Descolada planet and Bean's surviving children and Ender-in-Peter will be an important character in that story.
True. But in the end, it's more important to remember that while it's not Ender-in-YP, it's most definitely not YP from Shadow series/etc. The character is very clearly articulated, one of your best, as both what Ender imagined him to be and what he wanted him to be; and mixed with what Ender would have done with that opportunity.
Hear hear! Peter 2.0 is most definitely NOT the character from the Shadow series, and I hope that remains evident in Shadows in Flight. He was one of my favorite characters from CotM and I am looking forward to seeing him in print again.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
I missed this thread the first time around, but let me add my two cents.
I'm rather surprised that so many people in this thread seem to think that the answer to the Young Val/Jane dilemma is to dehumanize her. I don't think that's necessary at all. From what I recall of my several readings of the book, they all went through the same debates as the OP. They were ALL conscious of Val being a real person. The problem was, ALL of their options were bad. There WAS no perfect solution. Malu explained what was going on, and we, the readers, were obviously supposed to take his word for it. Val becoming Jane was the best compromise, and Miro's method of achieving it was the best (maybe the only) way to achieve it. It isn't as though he was doing it with a smile on his face. It was stated time and again that it completely wrecked him.
The same goes for why Ender died. Malu explained that he was a broken vessel and that he couldn't hold a soul anymore. It wasn't an option. As for the method of his death, we can't expect every death to be perfectly poetic and romantic. Novinha wasn't urging him to die, she was easing him of his burden, part of which was from herself. It WAS poetic if you know how to read it. Also, I'm fairly certain that her reactions to the situation (and pretty much all of the situations in the series) were to show you that she wasn't perfect. In fact, I would dare say that she was the most "Real" character in the quartet.
I think a large part of the problem is that we were expected to take Malu's word for it on everything even though he was a complete stranger to us. We couldn't see his credentials. We knew nothing about him with which we could empathize, and so know that he was honest and right.
Card's characters represent imperfect people, and his stories represent imperfect circumstances (otherwise, we wouldn't have much of a story O.o)
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boxcard: All of the issues with Young Valentine that you disliked, I found rather moving. The whole situation was one of intense emotional circumstance, and the simple truth of life is that sacrifices must be made.
I think you nailed it - that's just life. Tough decisions must be made. It was obvious that SOMETHING had to be done, and even though you're torn, you don't want to see Young Val blink out of existence (or rather, save only her memories through Jane's takeover), there was no getting around that one aiúa being pulled three different ways wasn't going to last much longer. I don't think it came across as a nifty fix to Jane's problem. Rather, it was a struggle, and it brought up a lot of disturbing talk and surmising, and because those issues were address, it gained some meaning that it might not have had if it had been a fluke accident, a whoops! on the parts of Jane's or Ender's or even the hive queen's parts to cause the same outcome.
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: What I'm saying is that if you accept the birth of young Val and Peter, and what it means about their nature, then the subsequent events make sense. Ender's aiúa couldn't do a good job running three people, and needed to be re-consolidated into one body. For Ender to kind of wither and die because so much of what he cares about (both actions, and character) is happening outside of his body makes sense, and between Val and Peter it makes sense that Val gives up the body for Jane.
I think the characterization is spot-on when you accept that they aren't meant to individually be complete characters - until after Ender and Young Val "die".
....
I don't think the characterization falls short. I think it's up to par - in fact I actually think it's a well done book.
I agree. Out of the three books following Ender's Game, the moral dilemmas, the personal crises, etc. that come up in CotM caused me to be more emotionally invested in these characters that in the two preceding books. I think the fact that it bothered you so much, danila, is perhaps a testament to the writing, whether you realize it or not. If you didn't care so much about Young Val or Ender or Jane and so on, then I would consider it a flop.
Posted by Arthur Stuart (Member # 11868) on :
I think you are bat shit crazy....there has yet to be a book ive read of his that didnt equally inspire me.
Its a generic comment, but it rings true. He writes sci-fi with the appeal of mainstream fiction.
I was if anything more furious at the plot threads left dangling.... I wanted...no NEEDED toknow what was on that planet...
But the Shadow Series was ****ing astounding. And even so...the are several other novels you should be reading.
OSC is one of the few authors I can read blindly and KNOW it is him from his writing style.
The only problem I have is, when he does research on a topic, and incorporates it, he sounds very matter of factly with his writing.
As a black man, an IT major, and a sci fi fan, I get perturbed sometimes, but you cant say he is not through.
Example: I read MAgic Street a few years back, and I was irritable about the neighboorhood he used, and the people who gave him advice for the novel....
I still remember him using slag, in regards to the discussion of the 'Huns'.
"Mack street, you a hun Mack. You a hun."
Umm ya, my people occasionally replace terms liek ARE wit A, but the type of individual that would do so....usually wouldn't be having a discussion about the huns.
Just my two cents.
Posted by Arthur Stuart (Member # 11868) on :
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon:
Card's characters represent imperfect people,
I don't completely view it this way... Growing up, I never had a dad... People like Ender, Alvin, Roland Deschain, Arthur Dent were all peopel who gave me insight as to what CHARACTER was....
With characters like Roland, and Graff, and Lolawosiky,Ender, even DUMBLEDORE....
There is always this underlying feeling that They are only allowing these bad things to happen to build the character of lesser individuals.Because no matter how bad it gets, there is this creepy feeling that they all have it under control, or at very least they ALWAYS have a plan B so things will work out.
If that is not perfect, I dunno what is..
I suppose what you view as imperfect characters may very well be their humanity showing...
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Graff never had kids. To Card, that's as imperfect as you get.
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
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