I just finished reading the book and am not quite sure what to think about it...
My complaints: There are places where the plot bogs down and the book seems to drag. The mechs felt a little too science fiction and reminded me a little too much of AT-ST's from Star Wars. Also the entire part regarding Verus's lair felt way too much like James Bond - I even pictured all the henchmen running around in brightly colored, matching uniforms.
My likes: The beginning of the book was written in the style of Tom Clancy and it really got me into the mood. I liked how there were feints about if the radical extremeists on the right or left were going to attempt to take over the government before dramatically revealing it. Also, how you never revealed who was behind the assasinations of the President and Vice-President and at the end pointing that Torrent was following the way Rome transitioned from Republic to Empire. (Although it was a little heavy handed as I had already worked out that Torrent was pretty much behind everything halfway through the book.)
All in all, it was a decent read and I enjoyed it; although I don't feel it was quite up to the caliber I'm used to from Mr. Card's works.
Jesse
P.S. The part talking about how John Paul was bottomless and then "... and the carpet more or less cleaned up from the fudgesicle he had ..." made me think he left a different kind of brown stain for a moment Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
OK everybody, hold on - I've got to recall all the copies and fix this stuff before anybody else reads it ...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
If you're not going to be spending money on 'Empire,' spend it on my upcoming novel, 'King of the Bone-yard.'
It's a great read. I'm serious. It's the best thing since ever.
For details, email me your credit card number.
Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
I wasn't meaning any criticism about the book, I enjoyed it a lot. I was hoping that a few others obtained "advance" copies of the book and that we could discuss it.
Jesse
P.S. Scott R - check your inbox for my info Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I skimmed Empire page-by-page in the bookstore last night (it took me about 45 minutes), and I didn't find myself interested in the main thriller plot. I wanted more discussion of how Americans got to hating each other enough to fight. Maybe a novel from Torrent's point of view (or, more likely, about Torrent but from the point of view of a close associate) would be more uniformly interesting to me; perhaps the sequel will be that way.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I just finished it myself. I listened to the unabridged audiobook. Overall I really enjoyed it. I didn't care for the mechs either, or the hover cycles. I dislike mechs in general because they are not believable. There is no situation where a vehicle would not be better off with wheels or tracks. I was happy when Malich pointed this out. I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons. The story was great and my dislike of a couple elements didn't hamper my enjoyment of the book. I liked the Foundation reference. The book actually made me think about Hari Seldon right before his name was mentioned.
One minor error, the Army generally frowns on people wearing fatigues around town so it wasn't realistic for Malich and Coleman to put them on to go visit ground zero.
[ November 30, 2006, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Selran ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons.
That wouldn't have fit with their character as presented: spineless and unwilling to engage in honest combat. It also would have made for non-differentiated sides in the video game.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Selran:
I liked the Foundation reference. The book actually made me think about Harry Seldon right before his name was mentioned.
Woulda been nicer if the book had spelled his name "Hari Seldon" instead of "Hari Selden."
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by Selran:
I liked the Foundation reference. The book actually made me think about Harry Seldon right before his name was mentioned.
Woulda been nicer if the book had spelled his name "Hari Seldon" instead of "Hari Selden."
That would be me missspelling not the book. it has been a while since I read it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Mechs? Okay puts book on "to buy" list, I immediately predict at least 2 Manga adaptions and one animated series.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Sorry, Selran. I knew you misspelled it, but Empire itself actually says "Hari Selden."
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
OSC, you shouldn't read this thread. I'm a big fan of your work, and please go write Rasputin.
Anyway...
It kept me interested, right up until
SPOILERS!
right up until Rube got shot. I had identified more with him than with Cole, even though I suspected all along that he was being played by Palpatine -- I mean Torrent.
After that it was finish reading to find out what happened, but I wasn't quite as into it.
Posted by AdmiralSenn (Member # 9919) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Sorry, Selran. I knew you misspelled it, but Empire itself actually says "Hari Selden."
I actually joined the board specifically to mention this. I'm a big fan of Mr. Card's work and I'm glad he seems to be very honest about his beliefs and opinions, but getting the most-used name of one of science fiction's oldest and most "Foundational" series wrong is just silly.
For SHAME.
In all seriousness, parts of the book I liked, parts I didn't. I've actually been having daydreams about this exact scenario playing out in real life lately, and lo and behold I catch a copy sitting on the shelf at work (Books a Million). I read it in just over a day.
Anything specific beyond that has already been said by other people, I think. I do think the mechs could have been a little more interesting.. I'm reminded of the old cartoon walking spiders for some reason.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: OK everybody, hold on - I've got to recall all the copies and fix this stuff before anybody else reads it ...
Hey, some of us like henchmen.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
quote:right up until Rube got shot. I had identified more with him than with Cole, even though I suspected all along that he was being played by Palpatine -- I mean Torrent.
I had to pull off the road so I could fiddle with my iPod to replay this part and make sure I heard it right. I felt the same way but I changed my mind after Cole became.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
There is no book without typos.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I think the story would have worked fine if the Progressive's just had ordinary weapons.
That wouldn't have fit with their character as presented: spineless and unwilling to engage in honest combat. It also would have made for non-differentiated sides in the video game.
I have thought about this some more and you're right. A story with the same basic theme could have been told without the super high tech but this story needed it.
Posted by shabbit (Member # 9925) on :
Empire was a great read, albeit predictable in the sense that Torrent turned out to be the mastermind. Reub dying was shocking; I hope that DeeNee angle is cleared up. I want to know how somebody as sharp as Reub can be partially fooled by those above him and totally fooled by the one he works with. The fatal mistake of blind faith?
These alternative history yarns are great. I liked the reference to my birth city Torrance that OSC (and Harry Turtledove). I did have to imagine this taking place in around 2012 - sometime after the Bush administration so that I could believe the effective foreign policy part.
The first part of the book was masterfully done. The second part felt more like what the 2nd Pirates of the Carribean movie was to me - good, but with something to be desired (it may just be a conclusion to the trilogy). Still, I look forward to the other two books and might even try the game myself.
PS: Do bullets and eye sockets just appeal to OSC? I noticed it twice in this book, and it made me think of Bean and Achilles.
Posted by tmservo (Member # 8552) on :
The audiobook once again brilliantly choses Rudniki as the reader, which helps greatly for me
It's Audible's pick of the week this week! I was glad to burn some credits and grab it Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Just finished. Page-turner.
Posted by JediLow (Member # 9929) on :
I read most of it in a night and finished off the rest just now (had a work conference today so I only just finished it).
I would have loved if the first 1/2 of the book was much longer than it was - the political and historical basis and premise of the book was excellent (and since I was trained as a historian it appeals to me on so many different levels). While I still think it was a great read it did feel like it lost something when it began to focus on the action (or was that because I lost the attachment I had to the character of Reub and Cole just didn't have my attention at that point?).
I'm definitely looking forward to the next book in the series.
(By the way, does anyone think that the tanks on the cover of Empire look like Halo's Scorpion tanks?)
Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
JediLow, I agree with you about the political and historical emphasis. I really enjoyed that and wished there was more of it in the book.
Jesse
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"PS: Do bullets and eye sockets just appeal to OSC? I noticed it twice in this book, and it made me think of Bean and Achilles."
Maybe he did it as a nod to Bean and Achilles? I'm pretty sure he used "Jeesh" as a nod to the Shadow series.
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
Just finished it today and loved it!
I predict in the next book Nick has things figured out about Torrent and he wants justice for his dad (cause don't you just wonder about Nick?). Through his mom he gets an internship on capitol hill and . . . well it turns out it doesn't matter because just then the Formics attack for the first time and . . .
I'm still thinking about why, but I loved the part of the story where Cole interacts with the Guardsman on the Washington/Idaho border. Also, my favorite line is Cole breaking the tension with, "Look, I was hoping there'd be cookies."
[ December 03, 2006, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Dread Pendragon ]
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Actually, I find the vast majority of random jokes and humorous lines in OSC books to be not funny. Lots of times they feel so out of place with the tone of the rest of the scene that I have to stop and think, "Gee, what's OSC trying to get across with this?"
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: how Americans got to hating each other enough to fight.
Because the news media makes money by making people fearful. People who want to get in the news have to do something that will create anxiety. In a way our society is like a cat with it's own ill humor to swing it by the tail. Or whatever Everett said.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Where did OSC say there would be a sequel?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
[quote]Because the news media makes money by making people fearful.[quote]
I don't think it's just the news media who profits from, or solely propagates, this culture of fear. There is a good living to be made scaring anyone who listens. Some Christian sects even make it a main tenet of their faith. Businesses keep their employees in line using the same tactics, and if you read Card's War Watch screed right before the election, he was using fear to influence your vote.
Invoking fear to further an argument is a blunt instrument, possibly justified, but like violence, it should leave both people feeling somehow lesser for the experience.
[ December 04, 2006, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Ooh, it sounds like I should be fearful of them then. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
See, I'm a fan of shame. It's not that I think that if you don't do X, something bad is going to happen to you. I think that you don't do X, you should merely be ashamed of the quality of your character.
[ December 04, 2006, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
quote: Actually, I find the vast majority of random jokes and humorous lines in OSC books to be not funny. Lots of times they feel so out of place with the tone of the rest of the scene that I have to stop and think, "Gee, what's OSC trying to get across with this?"
If someone makes a joke, there doesn't have to be anything someone is trying to "get across," maybe they are just trying to be funny or cute. If you don't think it's funny, that's fine, it just isn't your kind of humor.
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
quote: Where did OSC say there would be a sequel?
Nowhere, S, I was just making a comment for the fun of it because I was intruiged by the character of that boy.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I just started reading Empire, and I'm kicking myself for not pointing out the shift from Farsi to Arabic in Malich's notes when we had the first five chapters up. Maybe it used to say Arabic both places. Still, probably just a typo level error.
Posted by talsmitde (Member # 9780) on :
What I really want to know is the subject of Reuben's doctoral dissertation. Or did the Army order him to drop out after he passed his orals?
Posted by Brian R (Member # 9953) on :
As a novel, I didn't find Empire up to the standards of either Ender's Game or Alvin Maker, but that's a bit much to expect every time. It still held my attention, probably because the idea of America ceasing to be a republic and becoming an empire (which I believe to be a real danger, although not for the reasons Card suggests in the novel) is high on my concerns right now.
The problem is I really don't think he's got his finger on what could cause the transition. Culture wars like the one we're suffering through now are not new; we've been there several times since the Constitution was ratified, and only once did it lead to civil war. Nor did that civil war come anywhere near giving us an Augustus.
Rome didn't lose the Republic because she had a civil war but because civil wars became endemic, a symptom of the failure of her governing structures (designed for a city state) to handle her changed reality (a great empire). America's governing structures weren't designed for an empire, either. They can handle a big country, but they assume that all or at least most of those subject to the government's authority are citizens with a say in governance. Rome became an Empire because Rome first acquired an empire, and the same could happen to America -- is already happening actually. The maintenance of a professional military, the maintenance of military bases around the world, the habit of military intervention all over the globe, the resulting constant state of war, the habitual government secrecy and lack of public accountabiility necessary to do all this, the wealth flowing into the country from pressured trade treaties, the concentration of that wealth into too few hands with resulting concentration of political power, all of this is the slow death of democracy. We cannot be at once a democracy and an empire -- or a superpower, which means the same thing.
Posted by hatrkr81 (Member # 9317) on :
Personally I loved the book from cover to cover. Just finished it last night. And, while of course I was shocked and upset to see Reuben die, I still liked Cole alot, and he along with the rest of the story definitely kept my interest.
I think one of my favorite scenes in the book was when Cecily went back to the house for the first time after Reuben died and he just described her catharsis so perfectly. Once again, very human characters.
Great job!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I scanned this thread and was still surprised at Reuben getting shot. Of course, it was in its early stages.
Actually, what I might like is a prequel to get to know the jeesh better. They were fascinating guys, but it was just too much to absorb while I was reading this. Maybe a re-read will improve that aspect.
Boy, people who come into the shadow series not having read Ender's Game would have that effect as well.
[ December 07, 2006, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by tmservo (Member # 8552) on :
Fundamentally, the book is solid. But the book has a real problem.. by using "real" people, commentators, and events of the present day, it is almost immediately dated. It's one of those books that just can't survive the test of time, because by using so many pop-culture references, the book has a tendency to take the reader out of the prose. No matter whether Card likes it or not, and pro or con, the reader will bring their preconceived notions of what they think of characters like O'Reilly, or Fox News, etc.
Even some of the references within the books to hardware and items tend to be jarring in that they often come across as product placement "we'll hear the news on XM" and I'm busy thinking "why don't they have SIRIUS" rather then paying attention to the narrative.
This is a book that has at it's heart a hell of a storyline. But by involving so many "real" people, it snaps the listener out of the alternative world being setup in the book and instead brings too many real world opinions and thoughts into the way it reads and as such, the book is far less powerful.
Part of what makes a book have greater meaning is your ability to detach all inbuilt prsumptions and look at the ideas as they are presented. I think Card sabotages himself by using so many references to well known persons, products, and real world events.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
Hypothetical situation though, if we dispensed with this policy of "ruling-by-proxy" through Pinochets, Aristides, Batistas, Somozas, Noriegas, Husseins, Mubaraks, Shahs, and Marcoses and incorporated soverign nations into our union first as US Territories, then as US States, would the US then be an empire or a global federation?
The USA started out as a federation of states and according to the US Constitution, we still are. We grew from a federation of 13 former colonies to a federation of 50 states + several overseas posessions.
When the Falconist Party began to advocate admitting soverign nations into the US as states and territories, people accused the movement of of being imperialistic. However, I would champion that the formal incorporation of nations into the union would be more benign and less imperialist than the current policy of ruling-by-proxy.
For one thing, the people of nations that America rules-by-proxy don't have much say in how their governments are run, don't enjoy the freedoms and rights Americans enjoy, nor do they share in America's prosperity. If these nations were first annexed as US Territories, rebuilt, and conferred US Statehood, then the people of these nations will be guarranted by our own Constitution the power to elect their own state and local governments and have their rights protected by our Constitution.
Another thing is that not only these new states can elect their own leaders, but they will also have representation in US Congress. What if our invasion fo Canada succeeded in 1812? What if we annexed all of Mexico after WW2? What if Cuba, Haiti and the Phillipines became US States? What if the USA annexed Germany, Japan, and Korea after WW2 and they became US States? Would their Senators and Representatives in Congress voted for the Iraq War?
Another thing is if the USA did expand into a global union of states, then the USG would actually have to delegate more power to the state and local governments because the US would be too big to be governed centrally. Either that or the US would have to restructure itself to govern a larger union of states.
Maybe the US becoming a global union may smack of empire. But if it this is considered an empire, it looks like it would be the empire of liberty that Thomas Jefferson called for.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
Maybe this will be described in OSC's next book, but if the USA truly became an empire, what would this empire look like? What would its structure be like? What programs would be implemented? Would the US continue to rule-by-proxy or formally annex nations like Iraq and Afghanistan? Would the USG still be headed by a President or an Emperor? Would the USA still be called just that or would it's name change to the "American Empire"?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: But the book has a real problem
It's not really a problem, it's a feature But seriously, it's a style decision he decided to go with. It's not like somethine he couldn't stop himself from doing. I'd guess it was to create a feeling of reality alongside the mechs and hoverbikes.
P.S. Part of the idea was that the emporer respect the forms of the republic. It was very deft how he laid the groundwork for removal of the 2 term limit by taking office before his first inauguration. He wouldn't be eligible to run in the 2012 election.
Posted by Objectivity (Member # 4553) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: It was very deft how he laid the groundwork for removal of the 2 term limit by taking office before his first inauguration. He wouldn't be eligible to run in the 2012 election.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but I don't think what you're saying is accurate.
A president can only run for election two times or serve a maximum of 10 years.
For example, if the president steps down/resigns with less than two years left on his term, the vice president would take over and could run for election twice, serving a total of 10 years. A vice president who took and served more than two years of a president's remaining term could only run for election once.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
There are a number of ways Torrent can stay in power.
One way is if he served is full two-terms as President, then serve as Vice-President and/or chief-of-staff of a subsequent Presidency through a "figurehead" President(s). If he served as Presdient, then V.P. under another administration, that is 16 years. And there are no term limits on the White House Chief-of-staff.
Another idea is that Torrent would be so popular that he could inspire both parties in Congress as well as all state legislatures to repeal the Constitutional amendment that limits the President to two terms. And that is just the first way an amendment can be added to the Constitution.
Little do people know about the second way because it has never been used. The second way is when 2/3 of the states ratify an amendment to the Constitution first, when that happens, the U.S. Congress has to hold a Constitutional Convention to amend the US Constitution. When that happens, the Convention need not be limited to that particular amendment. In fact, the Convention can tack on several amendments or come out with a whole new Constitution! That is why the second method of amending the US Constitution has never been used.
Posted by Brian R (Member # 9953) on :
If he were to do it the way Augustus did, he wouldn't remain president, but would create a new office above the presidency with control of the military and veto power over all acts of Congress (no possibility of override), leaving the presidency to others who would continue to be elected. (Augustus was also Pontifex Maximus, which would not be possible in America without repealing the First Amendment.)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The VP thing was suggested about Clinton and/or Reagan, and I believe it was not legal.
I was just thinking today what would happen if someone now used OSC's method of blowing up the white house to blow up the white house. I actually think it's kind of needlessly complex, but it would have had to been something no one would coincidentally think of, like, say, just touring DC in a motorhome and shooting the rocket launcher out the window.
It's funny, motor homes are illegal in Ocean City MD due to the hotel lobby, but not DC.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
Even creating an office above the Presidency would require a Constitutional amendment. And what would that office be called?
There is another route he could take. He could subordinate the USA to a world federation with himself as head of a world government. He could leave the American Presidency to become President of the world.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
Come to think of it, wasn't Augustus Consul before he became "Imperator"? I thought he held several offices simultaneously.
Napoleon modeled the French Constitution for the Consulate after the Roman republic with his office being First Consul and his legislature featuring a Tribunate, A Senate, a Legislative Corps, and the State Council (which doubled as his cabinet). After a few years, he amended that constitution to entrust the whole government to his office as Emperor and he then modeled the French Empire after the Roman Empire.
When Hindenburg died. Hitler combined his own office of Chancellor with Hindenburg's office of President to become "Fuherer and Reich Chancellor" which then got shortened to "Fuerher".
Mussolini refered himself as "Head of Government" as well as Il Duce. Mussolini held of offices of Prime Minister, Minister of Economics, and several cabinet posts simulatenously. However, Mussolini allowed the King to remain head of state. Mussolini proclaimed his nation to be the "Revived Roman Empire.
Posted by Jqueasy (Member # 7085) on :
I was wondering if it was me. I am glad/saddened to see that I was not the only who thought Empire was a disappointment. I enjoyed the first 200 pages, then it just slowed down. I'm glad, because it's not just me, saddened because it is the first time I wasn't thrilled with a OSC book. I hope it does well. But, there are other unfinished Card series *cough* Maker *cough* that I would love to see completed.
Posted by The Leader (Member # 9951) on :
I think Torrent is going to keep the office of President. However, the title may change or the office of POTUS is going to have very enhanced powers.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
I can't believe someone didn't mention the funniest quote in the book...
Cole: "...What do you think it takes to build one of those? Two million? Six?" "Real costs or Pentagon costs?" asked Reuben. "Microsoft Costs." "These aren't a Microsoft product," said Reuben. "Developed in secret, though." "Yeah, but they don't lock up."
I nearly fell off the couch when I read that!
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I finished this book today and it's definitely up there with Card's best work. Exciting, thought-provoking, and scarily realistic. I'm looking forward to the sequel.
Posted by Shnabubula (Member # 9834) on :
the first five chapters began the book and the ones I didn't read ended it. I stopped reading at least several chapters after I begun but once I made the purchase I'd already done all my reading online of the material
soo.. the riddle is...
How many chapters have I read?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
My "problem" is that I always just read books as books...and did it entertain me? Was I addicted, intrigued, hooked? Yep. I bought Empire yesterday at around 5 PM and finished it before going to sleep (even stopped for dinner!). I loved that it was so up-to-the-minute...maybe because I live in Leesburg, so the local references made me giggle. (Kept saying to my husband, "Hey! They're crossing at Point of Rocks again! Wonder if they remembered to turn off their headlights???")
I am sometimes aggrieved that all political viewpoints in fiction I admire aren't mine. I do wonder how different my universities were (both under- and post- graduate), that the English department persistently focused on poetry instead of politics -- I could never tell how my professors voted, although I knew they knew way more about Yeats than I could comprehend at 20. Or 25. Or now, for that matter. I
Ånd yet I am a reader who is always in awe of STORY. If a story sweeps me along, I'll let anything happen and retrofit it later. (For example, after reading, I think walking "mechs" and hoverbikes are a great idea for scaring the crap out of a population that grew up on Star Wars. Who cares if they're not practical? You're not using them against a real enemy, one you want to kill...you're using them to scare fellow Americans, who are going to have immediate reactions to seeing pop culture nightmares become reality.) I don't think this stuff while reading -- hey, this makes sense for Card to do because.... I'm just like, ACK! How are they going to make it out alive??
So thank you, Mr. Card, for that reading experience that is WHY I READ. There are plenty of books that don't suck me in, so I truly appreciate those that do.
And if in addition it makes me double-check my knee-jerk reactions to today's politics, and makes me remember to respect and maybe even love those whose opinions I really really think are wrong wrong wrong -- then it's literature.
So thanks.
Posted by Shnabubula (Member # 9834) on :
empire comes from the greek work afgaristo meaning thank you as in thank you for ridding my country of it's culture and identity.. only in this novel [one which I have yet to read] Orson describes a self forming empire through the collapse of a republic... like a collapsible sofa bed..
HEY LOOK MOM IT CHANGES FROM A REPUBLIC TO AN EMPIRE IN ONE MOVE
okay so here's the big question... if a sofa bed can turn back into a sofa when you're done sleeping on it... why can't an empire revert into a republic if we so desire ENJOY MY LIFE CAUSE I WILL!
<Removed profanity. Please don't do it again. --PJ>
[ December 29, 2006, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
I'm going to say right out that I've read a little over half the book - I've gotten far enough for George Soros' compound to materialize, for Rube to die and for Torrent to reappear as the obvious mastermind/conciliator.
I'm not sure if I'm going to finish it, and here's why: stereotypes.
The book is chock full of them. Usually Mr. Card (Scott? OSC? How do you refer to an author on his own website, especially when you know he's been following this thread? The generic "you"?) is a phenomenal character artist, which is why I fell in love with Ender and Bean and even Bonzo Madrid. But the character in this book feel like the very extreme stereotypes the book (and Mr. Card) purport to disdain. (In Empire, Rube was the one exception to the general bland characters, but only because of the book's very first scene. By the end, he'd lost me.)
The two I'm most qualified to discuss are the media and the military (strange, neh, to find someone sympathetic to both of those "sides" of this civil war?). While I enjoyed the descriptions of how TV interviews play, I was frustrated by what I view as an ignorant portrayal of an insular, elitist media, evil regardless of which "side" a particular network was on. Also, it's a complete misperception to think of the "media" as this giant, unified front controlling information, something to be universally disdained and scorned because it has a certain agenda.
Working in the media has shown me this is universally not the case. Reporters are individuals, and each works differently. News organizations are far from uniform, and each works differently. Some are more unified and directed than others because the management approach is more top-down; others are more a collection of dissonant voices unified only by a common cover, front page or brand name. Media organizations don't want anything, except to beat the other guy and have information flow more freely. They are not out to "get" the military or bring down the U.S. I promise they do not harbor any secret nefarious plans, plots or even motives.
Second, the military. The idea that there would be officers, however high ranking, willing to foment or even talk about fomenting a right-wing coup is completely ludicrous and only plays into the stereotypes harbored only by people unfamiliar with the military. Most of the officers or soon-to-be officers I know would be offended at the suggestion, as would the enlisted personnel, no matter how they vote.
Also, there's just no way that Reuben and Coleman would talk to each other the way they did. Special forces guys can be exceptions, yes, but protocol and hierarchy mean more than anything to military guys because their lives depend on it. The differentiation between enlisted and officer isn't some weird system of classist oppression, as many with little military exposure would assert, it's a mechanism to keep people safely distanced so as to facilitate sound decision making and quick response. Someone with as much field experience as Reuben Malich would know that and adhere to it, regardless of "instinct" upon first meeting.
And third, the stereotypes of the American people, on both sides of the aisle. Frankly, the country is still far more middle of the road than this book suggests. Democrats were angry about the 2000 elections, yes, but not angry enough to stage a civil war! They might talk about infringement on their civil liberties, and they may not like it...but they're not willing to kill their neighbors over it! The idea that all "liberals" and all "conservatives" are unified is a false paradigm, and it smacks of a Washington-centric, polarized viewpoint promulgated not by newspapers but by ideological columnist and bloggers. Regular people on regular American streets vote all kinds of ways for all kinds of different reasons. One of my family members is a staunch pro-choice Democrat who is very much against the Iraq war. In the same election, she voted against George Bush and for Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, because of his strong stance on stem cells and his general moderation (even though she agreed with his Democratic opponent on other issues, such as Iraq).
Frankly, this last election shows just how purple America is. Hundreds of thousands of Americans who voted for George Bush in 2000 or 2004 voted for a Democrat for Congress. It just shows that we still are the nation of pragmatists, not ideologues, and that we pay attention to what our leaders do, not what party they belong to.
I felt like these stereotypes permeated the language and plot of the book, misinforming characters' actions and creating irritating passages that made me want to roll my eyes and slam the book shut. I'm sure it will make a great video game, and that's probably why it was such a disappointing book.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
I have to say that Reuben and Coleman didn't strike me as seasoned killers. Particularly their insistence on engaging in "banter" during combat situations. "Banter" is how intellectuals (of every stripe) comfort themselves when placed in a situation that is beyond their control, it isn't how professionals communicate critical tactical information to each other. But hey, Card's a writer, I can forgive him for something like that.
As for Democrats not being willing to kill their neighbors over politics...you're living in a fantasy world. Or, which is more probable, you're simply lying
I'm intrigued by the idea of a sequel based on Nick (or whoever) trying to avenge his father's death. But I have to echo the question, "who said there was going to be a sequel?"
Posted by MouetteSheridan (Member # 10098) on :
I am half-way through Empire - at the chapter just after Ruben's death - and am nervously eyeing the last half of it. Have loved some of it and less than loved some of it, so... we'll see.
My first disappointment was, I admit, typos - I'm a technical writing major hoping to become an editor; of course I noticed the typos. And yes, every book has them, as well as grammatical errors... but I noticed more of them in the first few chapters of Empire than I have ever noticed in another of OSC's books. Though I admit that, having looked up 'cooky' to see whether it was a word and finding that it is, in fact, a valid altnerative for 'cookie', there are fewer errors than I thought.
Despite the typos, I was completely pulled into the world of Empire; I adored Ruben, was more happy with Cessy when she wasn't speaking from her own viewpoint, and loved Nick. I liked Cole, but as a secondary character. The political and historical thought was intriuging, and I think the only point Card really 'lost' me on was the sudden introduction of the mechs - and even then, after I just accepted them as the technology he wanted to use, they worked - mostly.
However, I literally dropped the book when Ruben was killed, and I... am still feeling iffy about picking it up again. Granted, they're different characters, but abruptly killing Ruben felt like abruptly killing *Ender*; removing the character I cared about most, without a hint of warning beyond Cessy and Rube's conversation about who they trusted, disconnected me from the story.
Torrent is, of course, the one behind everything; I knew this from the moment the words "wanted Ruben's soul" are used to describe him during Rube's time at Princeton. That's a pretty strong trigger phrase to "This is the bad guy, watch out!"
*sigh* Of course I have to finish reading it. It's a Card novel. But so far, it isn't going to be my favorite.
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I wanted more discussion of how Americans got to hating each other enough to fight.
You're one of the international internet users? Or just very young? I think for anybody who lives here and is politically aware of what his/her neighbors are saying, it's pretty obvious. I remember one who shocked me: on my Anglican (Episcopalian) e-mail List, one voluminous poster who had sounded very Christian before that went ballistic some time _before_ the 2000 election, and when it wound up in the Florida mess as is did, then to the Supreme Court, got progressively more violent in his language. He couldn't even post "praying" in response to a Prayer Request without the violence in his sig line. I fully expected to hear that he'd been picked up for trying to take a shot at President Bush, or had died of apoplexy. I don't know whether he's ever calmed down: he dropped off the List some time early in 2001.
Take a look at the television pictures of the anti-war protests now: I get the distinct impression that some of those people wouldn't want to shoot Al Quaeda members, but wouldn't have a problem with shooting Republicans.
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Selran:
One minor error, the Army generally frowns on people wearing fatigues around town so it wasn't realistic for Malich and Coleman to put them on to go visit ground zero.
They had very limited wardrobes of clean clothes available (remember how they left Washington?), and had gotten up very early--didn't want to wear sunday-go-to-meetin' clothes on a 5AM quick ride into town.
Maybe I didn't notice an incongruity there, because I used to do volunteer work (secretarial) in my church on Saturdays, and was used to the Rector dropping in to the parish office in fatigues, before/after his National Guard meeting, just to check on how things were going or to attend to some detail before going home for the day.
Posted by Sibyl (Member # 10079) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I just started reading Empire, and I'm kicking myself for not pointing out the shift from Farsi to Arabic in Malich's notes when we had the first five chapters up. Maybe it used to say Arabic both places. Still, probably just a typo level error.
Maybe somebody else pointed it out, because Cessy covered it later when she was translating the class notes, that it wasn't really straight "college language class" Farsi, but a sort of amalgam of Farsi, Arabic, English, Spanish, and maybe "other" that Reuben's jeesh had evolved as a sort of private language.
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