One of the most common themes in OSC's nonfiction is his dislike of of a certain sort of intellectual snob. The problem is, I have never met anyone who acts like the people he is always describing. Is this because San Antonio is such a backwater that the real snobs won't settle here? Or because youth culture, even the most geeky of subcultures, has little tolerance for people who take themselves seriously (snobbery is encouraged, but only with a healthy dose of self-deprecation)? For example, everyone I know loves the musical Les Mis., and I know several actors, a few playwrights and many theatre lovers, all of whom think it is brilliant.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:For example, everyone I know loves the musical Les Mis., and I know several actors, a few playwrights and many theatre lovers, all of whom think it is brilliant.
I think there is some truth to your backwater theory. It's hard to imagine many true theater snobs moving to San Antonio.
Also, I wouldn't expect there to be much of that snobbery in youth culture anywhere. Very few people are even exposed to that flavor of snobbery, let alone adopt it themselves, before university.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"It's hard to imagine many true theater snobs moving to San Antonio." Which might work, except that OSC lives in N.C., not in California, New York or Boston.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:"It's hard to imagine many true theater snobs moving to San Antonio." Which might work, except that OSC lives in N.C., not in California, New York or Boston.
A) Do you consider OSC to be the same type of snob he talks against? B) One instance does not contradict a general trend.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I've met lots of the people OSC describes as "snobs", and I live in the veritable boonies.
There are probably plenty of OSC's snobs in San Antonio.
There's at least one where I live...
it's me :-)
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
I live in New York. There are plenty such snobs Particularly when it comes to film--last year's best picture nominees are quite representative of cinema snobbery.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Edgehopper: I live in New York.
I'm sorry.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
I've lived in San Antonio and there are plenty of snobs there, but you don't really get that when your young there. Hang out near the box seats at the Alamodome and I am pretty sure you'll find one or two. Granted it isn't like New York, but that is only because New York is the center of a lot of stuff that revolves around snobbery.
As for where Card lives I live here now and it is full of snobs, me probabloy being one of them because I have two degrees if that qualifies you as a snob, I really don't know. But this area is full of universities, there are 5 Universities in the Gboro area and they all have their fair share of PHDs and all that. But not every PHD is a snob, only some.
In my experience it is always the people who are highly educated and not very smart that end up being the worst snobs? But that is just my particular expereince.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Just about every school principal I've had is an intellectual snob. Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I've been called one but I don't know that I am. It takes more than a degree. It takes disliking others because they don't have degrees (or some other qualification). My friends are about equally divided between college professors and carpenters .
Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
I know plenty of rich snobs do those count?
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Rich snobs count double.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Some rich people are snobs, or at least some that I have met.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Rich snobs are better than poor snobs, at least they don't want my change.
Edit: (^not being entirely serious. Upon rereading I saw that this could be taken to mean rich people are better than poor people, and that is definitely not how I feel.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
What was this in reference to? (Which column?)
Does not liking Les Miserables make you a snob?! I loathe that show, but all of the theatre snobs I know love it. Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
I been posting based on the idea that we were trying to define what a snop is based on OSC depiction of them in his books, I think predominantly from th eenderverse. I only remember a couple of snobs in the books, so I was just trying to give my opinion on what a snob is and I think that one of my definitions included me so I have been doing a lot osoulsearching becuase of this in the last couple of days. Who would of thought: I can see the posters now ** HOW HATRACK SAVED MY LIFE **
Posted by mojammer (Member # 4416) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: One of the most common themes in OSC's nonfiction is his dislike of of a certain sort of intellectual snob. The problem is, I have never met anyone who acts like the people he is always describing.
If you take everyone else as seriously as you take yourself, and try to understand them, then you won't think of them as foreign, incomprehensible people. Card points at the far left as if they had no ground to stand on. But he only differs from them by degree, not in principle. I must admit that he does a pretty good job of inserting his values into his books, coming from any of his characters and being analyzed by "good" or "bad" guys.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Pelegius, it really does have ALOT to do with you living in San Antonio. Aside from a few old people in Alamo Heights or Olmos Park, it's hard to find it in S.A. I'm not sure why, it's certainly a big enough city, but it doesn't have that kind of culture. However, think Austin and you'll find plenty of it. I've also lived in Dallas, and there're plenty there as well. S.A. is just... not that kind of place.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I loved living in San Angelo. It's not the same, but pretty close.
OSC may live in NC, but he has gone to New York and taken in shows in the past, and he produced a play in L.A. last year. It's not like he hides out in NC. I believe he has said he lives there because of the racial diversity it provides.
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
I'm moving to San Antonio!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Pelegius, it really does have ALOT to do with you living in San Antonio. Aside from a few old people in Alamo Heights or Olmos Park, it's hard to find it in S.A. I'm not sure why, it's certainly a big enough city, but it doesn't have that kind of culture. However, think Austin and you'll find plenty of it. I've also lived in Dallas, and there're plenty there as well. S.A. is just... not that kind of place.
I grew up in San Francisco, and I am very familiar with the area (Palo alto) where OSC spent his early years. His vision of the intellectual super-snob academic nazi is just totally out there. It never even comes close to any reality I have yet to experience. His characterizations of academics and intellectuals are cartoonish at best, and that's probably the saddest hardest thing about him. Its very strange.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"Aside from a few old people in Alamo Heights or Olmos Park" where I went to school, although not where I grew up or live. Very un-snoby and, generaly, not particularly intellectual area. King William has a few intellectual type snobs, I know one, a writer. Maybe if I lived down there I would no more.
Posted by Ecthalion (Member # 8825) on :
quote: His vision of the intellectual super-snob academic nazi is just totally out there. It never even comes close to any reality I have yet to experience.
i run into these every day.....
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
I met a snob a last fall when I was working on the University of Maryland Eastern Shore campus out here. Our company was occupying a classroom to use as office space. In the class room across from us was a woman who had just finished her class and was cleaning her chalkboard erasers on the doorframe outside of our office. It sounded like some one was bounding on our door so I went to investigate.
Anyway, we talked a bit and I found out that she was new to the area. I told her I was new too and she immediately went in to a rant about what a drab and boring place this was to live and how culturally insignificant it was and then assumed I was in agreement asked if I felt the same way.
This is a rural and somewhat conservative area and carries with it it's own very rich and deep-seated culture if you bother to recognize and accept it. So I told here I didn't agree and our conversation ended abruptly when she left in a huff. I didn't even get to tell here why.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ecthalion:
quote: His vision of the intellectual super-snob academic nazi is just totally out there. It never even comes close to any reality I have yet to experience.
i run into these every day.....
Well then I am just perplexed. I think this has something to do with how people approach the world. I live in a college town, I am a UC student, and according to all logic, these people should be thick on the ground where I am, and yet somehow I have never been molested by one. Why is that? Why is it that some people obviously can't survive a day without meeting someone too intolerably academic for them? What is that?
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
It depends on the department. I didn't meet any snobs in the engineering or music department when I was in collage, just arrogant pricks. But in the sociology departments the snobs run rampant. If you presented forth any sort of conservative opinion or approach you would be hard pressed to get out of there with a D, which is exactly what I got. And I thought I was being liberal. But now that I live in a blue state I realize now that I am still quite conservative.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
There certainly *are* snobs. But it would be erroneous to suggest there's a black-and-white dichotomy with snobs on one side and good, honest, salt-of-the-earth folk on the other. Or that either of the above exist only in x,y, and z, and never in a, b, or c.
Snobbery- intellectual, financial, or otherwise- is not the source of all ill in the universe, nor is immersement in "common culture" the source of all good.
Or, to condense: feel free to dislike snobs, but don't make them out to be more than they are. If only not to feed their egos. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Blue state? What era are we living in now, honestly? Steev your reduction of the situation is troubling to me, because you seem just as willing to construct a wall and call anyone on the other side "them" as it seems your teachers in sociology were willing.
If your efforts at critical thinking and expression ran along these lines in college, I can't say I am surprised you got that D, not because you're a conservative, but because you actually think being a conservative makes it harder for you to get your ideas across. Maybe your ideas just weren't very good? I say this because it is hard for me to believe that you don't simply blame your conservatism where other factors brought down your work. I have seen people do this a hundred times, with various rationale for why the system got them down, but I have yet to be convinced by any of them, your story included. Why can I be so sure? Some part of me just knows that a smart and productive person can get along and educate him/herself in any environment, and that dealing with a difference of opinion and ideology should make an education more rounded and a person's perceptions more clear, not the other way around.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well then I am just perplexed. I think this has something to do with how people approach the world. I live in a college town, I am a UC student, and according to all logic, these people should be thick on the ground where I am, and yet somehow I have never been molested by one. Why is that?
Probably because you're a snob groupie Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Blue state? What era are we living in now, honestly? Steev your reduction of the situation is troubling to me, because you seem just as willing to construct a wall and call anyone on the other side "them" as it seems your teachers in sociology were willing.
...
And you don't?
I didn't go into specifics about that incident because it would utterly derail this thread, but I'll say this, it involved opinions regarding the inappropriateness of child molestation.
And in my comment before that last one, the example is much more simple and specific. I was dismissed just for stating my disagreement.
I alone enabled her to build a wall because I disagreed with her.
I'm guilty.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "Aside from a few old people in Alamo Heights or Olmos Park"
yeah, i remember those people I went to high school with a couple of their kids. Odd area, but very pretty when it wasn't killer hot and humid out.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Pelegius, I didn't say EVERYONE in alamo heights or olmos, I said a few old people. Some of the older folks there still seem to think they're better than the rest of the world just because. Luckily, not too much of the younger generation does.
Posted by ChevMalFet (Member # 9676) on :
You get snobs everywhere; anywhere someone's ambition has allowed them to overstep their ability. The elitism is a reaction to a feeling of inferiority in such a situation; a bluff of sorts. To some degree we all succumb to this at one point or another, I think—I know I have—some folks, I suppose, aren't as capable of seeing how destructive the behavior is to their personalities and relationships.
Snobbery is very often associated with the arts—visual, musical, whatever—and the sophisticate crowd is strongly associated with social and economic power in communities, but really snobbery isn't limited to any one idea (Cars, Computers, Poetry, Literature, Movies, etc.).
The stereotype is the person living a relatively dreary life—successful or not—compensating for a lack of depth and substance in their lives, trying to represent their significance with an "insiders" knowledge of the finer arts. And of course get enough people together supporting the same facade, and they end up creating an in-group, in which everyone on the inside perceived as significant in their group, and those outside considered insignificant.
As for why you don't encounter many snobs in San Antonio Pelegius, I've never been so I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect it's a tight enough community that people place stronger value on interpersonal relationships.
Also, I don't think Universities by nature "manufacture" snobs out of the blue, but certainly the added stresses of a larger system with more competition lend well to encouraging people already on their way to snobbery.
Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
Maybe someone who cannot recognize a snob is a snob. Kind of like how you cant smell your own bad breath
A very common snob I run into is the music snob. They always claim to have liked band X before band X made it big. Once the band does make it big and they are actually making money they angrily state that the band sold out and the music is too main stream.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Maybe someone who cannot recognize a snob is a snob. Kind of like how you cant smell your own bad breath
Like they say that every group has an a**hole in it. Look around, and if you don't see who it is, it's you. Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"As for why you don't encounter many snobs in San Antonio Pelegius, I've never been so I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect it's a tight enough community that people place stronger value on interpersonal relationships."
I hadn't thought about it, but this may very well be the case. Despite the fact that San Antonio is over a million people, there is a strong tradition of what you describe. Actualy two equaly strong ones, one Latin and the other Southern. This leads many locals to comment how small the city seems.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I know I'm an snob, but at least I'm better than all the other snobs.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have met some of the people Card is describing. They are often wonderful in other ways, and I like them personally, but a lot of the attitudes are not inconceivable. I heard one this morning go on a rant about the word "rural" and how its unpronouncability is proof that nothing good can come from something described that way. She was kind of kidding, but only kind of.
For some reason I don't mind - her opinion doesn't take away anything from me. I don't agree, but then I know a lot of reverse snobs as well, and I disagree with them also.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: One of the most common themes in OSC's nonfiction is his dislike of of a certain sort of intellectual snob. The problem is, I have never met anyone who acts like the people he is always describing. Is this because San Antonio is such a backwater that the real snobs won't settle here? Or because youth culture, even the most geeky of subcultures, has little tolerance for people who take themselves seriously (snobbery is encouraged, but only with a healthy dose of self-deprecation)? For example, everyone I know loves the musical Les Mis., and I know several actors, a few playwrights and many theatre lovers, all of whom think it is brilliant.
Come to Seattle. The snobs are ALL OVER THE PLACE here.
I might even be one of them, actually. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote: It's not like he hides out in NC.
...cowering among the banjos and the collard greens...
Kidding, people. Kidding.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I heard one this morning go on a rant about the word "rural" and how its unpronouncability is proof that nothing good can come from something described that way.
Huh? How could "rural" be considered difficult to pronounce? Am I completely misreading the sentence?
Posted by Gabola71 (Member # 9663) on :
I've lived in SA for over 20 years and can say without a doubt there are snobs of all sorts in this city. I have an old friend who is very much the Art/Movie/Intellectual snob who tries to dazzle with his depth of knowledge. I take him for what he is, a school teacher with a lot of time on his hands and a general good guy, I just stay clear of conversations that involve Movies, Art or philosophy. There are music snobs as well who don't like anything popular because that would mean that they were just like everyone else. In my younger days I would probably describe myself in that way, things change after you have kids though so I'm over that. Then there are the Real snobs, people that assume because you don't dress like them or don't live in a very large house or send your kids to Montsorri Schools (My Neighbor) that they are better than you. There are so many Snobs in SA, thank your lucky stars you have friends that aren't. I live in Alamo Heights and can attest to the fact that there are snobs inside 410 and outside, they are all over. -- sorry for the rant.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have met some of the people Card is describing. They are often wonderful in other ways, and I like them personally, but a lot of the attitudes are not inconceivable. I heard one this morning go on a rant about the word "rural" and how its unpronouncability is proof that nothing good can come from something described that way. She was kind of kidding, but only kind of.
The people OSC describes are not intellectuals though- they are idiots. This is what bothers me, what is an intellectual if not someone who devotes part of his or her life to developing thought, critical skills, ideas, and the ability to express them? The people he describes are the flunky morons who get hung up in campus groups and coffee shops convincing eachother that their stupid discussions about the word "rural" are intelligent. These people- at least to me- are not intellectual because they are stagnant, they are insulated into worthless groups who help them develop their rhetoric. But that happens everywhere, and the people who do this and claim to be intelligent are obvious frauds.
This idea though, that there is some kind of academic cult religion, based on what I don't know, that preserves a set of core beliefs is ridiculous. Any idea, I hope, can be challenged by a true academic, and I have always felt free to express a dissenting opinion.
My wariness of OSC's claims are also centered around their circularity: if you are an intellectual then you can't claim not to be indoctrinated into the academic religion because you have been brainwashed and you don't know. If you DO know, then you are actively trying to brainwash ME. Either way OSC leaves us with no proof of and no solution to this "problem," so it is both an alarmist claim, and an unarguable one. The whole thing is useless, because he argues against people being people. Guess what- idiots gravitate to other idiots to make themselves feel smarter. I work in a teen center and see it happen every single day; most of the real morons avoid learning like the plague, but plenty of people are scared away from evolving and growing by people like OSC who are hateful of intellectuals. The real intellectuals hardly need encouragement, one would hope, but he is doing a disservice to those who might benefit from a structured academic environment. Again I can learn only from my experience, that structure can really make a difference.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I heard one this morning go on a rant about the word "rural" and how its unpronouncability is proof that nothing good can come from something described that way.
Huh? How could "rural" be considered difficult to pronounce? Am I completely misreading the sentence?
Nope - that's what she said. Hard to say, and not worth the bother.
She's very fun. Opinionated, strong-willed, sometimes brusque. She's great, though, because she's also unfailingly considerate and polite in person, and that's very sincere. It means she's entertaining instead of threatening.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:These people- at least to me- are not intellectual because they are stagnant, they are insulated into worthless groups who help them develop their rhetoric. But that happens everywhere, and the people who do this and claim to be intelligent are obvious frauds. -Orincoro
Earlier in the thread you were saying OSC's brand of intellectual snob didn't exist.
So why do you like hanging out at OSC's official website, if you think he's cartoonish in his characterization of intellectuals?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
If Orincoro's like most of us, an interest in Card's fiction was the motivation behind coming to the site in the first place, but he stuck around for the community and the opportunities for conversation that it provides.
I know that while I appreciate Card's providing the space and building the foundation for the community here, his political and social positions have nothing to do with my continued presence here one way or the other.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
But this is the Discussions about OSC side. The whole "This community isn't about OSC" line is kind of... silly sounding. I wouldn't say that means you have to only say nice things about OSC. I just wonder why Orincoro is perseverating on this particular topic. Well, and I guess I accused him(?) of lying, also.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:But this is the Discussions about OSC side.
Sure, but since you were referring to the site as a whole, I figured that you were including all of the forums.
quote:The whole "This community isn't about OSC" line is kind of... silly sounding.
Agreed; this side of the river is, by definition, all about Card and Card-related things.
quote:I just wonder why Orincoro is perseverating on this particular topic.
That I can't speak to at all.
And in a completely off-topic side note, I've been seeing the word "perseverate" all over the place for some reason today. That and "assonance".
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
My 9 year old said she was perseverative the other day, by way of explaining how she had accomplished something. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Noemon, now you are perseverating.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka:
quote:These people- at least to me- are not intellectual because they are stagnant, they are insulated into worthless groups who help them develop their rhetoric. But that happens everywhere, and the people who do this and claim to be intelligent are obvious frauds. -Orincoro
Earlier in the thread you were saying OSC's brand of intellectual snob didn't exist.
So why do you like hanging out at OSC's official website, if you think he's cartoonish in his characterization of intellectuals?
Because I'm not going to run away from listening to what he has to say- and because I like it here, despite comments like yours.
BTW, I don't think OSC's brand of intellectuals exists because I don't think he is describing intellectuals, he is describing pycophantic idiots- they do exist in some numbers.
edit: Oh and it just occured to me, my wording is "people OSC describes." In this I am allowing that these people do exist as a concept, and then I am reacting to the concept or the fictional person or group he has presented and I am saying that that person is an idiot. For instance, I can say that the Buggers are wonderful creatures, and I can say in the same breath that buggers don't exist. The buggers exist as a fiction and that is enough to respond to.
This also got me thinking about people in real life, and I decided that these people may exist, but that my view of them and OSC's is completely different. I don't see them as legitimate academics, and I feel that anyone like this is too silly and busy preening to actually cause any harm to anyone. His characterization of the idiot scene-member as a dangerous and legitimized member of some powerful heirarchy in academia is, to me, ridiculous, so that incarnation of the person he describes, the one with power and influence, does not exist. I hope that clarifies some of what I am talking about- there are shades between talking about a fiction and an agreed upon reality.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: But this is the Discussions about OSC side. The whole "This community isn't about OSC" line is kind of... silly sounding. I wouldn't say that means you have to only say nice things about OSC. I just wonder why Orincoro is perseverating on this particular topic. Well, and I guess I accused him(?) of lying, also.
I don't need to explain the difference between lying and rephrasing, nor am I ashamed of being called out when I change my stance from one post to another- sometimes the space of a day makes you think about things a little differently, and I would think you'd appreciate me thinking about the topic and evolving my ideas. When someone is "accused" of flip-flopping I laugh, because smart people change their minds all the time, and often for better reasons than political popularity.
Posted by ChevMalFet (Member # 9676) on :
quote:BTW, I don't think OSC's brand of intellectuals exists because I don't think he is describing intellectuals, he is describing pycophantic idiots- they do exist in some numbers.
Touchy semantics aside, I'm going to disagree here. The snobbish characters may or may not be very solid intellectuals, but it's hard to tell because they allow a personal character flaw to dominate their personalities. There are various reasons why people do this, and few of them have anything to do with intelligence.
Whether or not they are legitimate academics is a value judgement you, as a reader, must make, and not really a group consensus thing.
Posted by EpicanthicFold87 (Member # 9631) on :
Does anyone else think OSC acts like a snob sometimes in his Reviews Everything column? He may not be the kind of intellectual snob he himself describes, but he can have the same irritating superior attitude. I'm not against people having strong opinions, but he presents them as if anybody who doesn't agree with him is a complete idiot. Take, for example, the opening bit in his most recent article, where he ridicules people who believe in global warming and alludes to Al Gore's movie "An Inconvenient Truth," which I doubt he has seen. I don't have any views on global warming myself, nor have I seen Gore's film, but I would give it a chance before mocking it in such a childish manner.
I found it ironic that, in an article a couple years ago (http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2004-05-02.shtml), he criticized Stephen King for ridiculing "American Idol," when OSC does the same kind of thing all the time. It's hard to describe, but it's almost like he's pretentious against pretentious people, thinking he's so wise and down-to-earth by constantly pointing out the elitists in the world.
Does that make me pretentious for calling him pretentious? I don't know. I don't feel pretentious.
I'm sorry if I sound like an OSC-hater. I've been reading his column for years now, so there must be something I like about it.
Posted by ChevMalFet (Member # 9676) on :
Epicanthic: We often find people that echo our own faults in some way the most irritating, if only because it's something we fight against in ourselves.
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Particularly when it comes to film--last year's best picture nominees are quite representative of cinema snobbery.
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