I finally finished reading Earthborn and I'm slightly peeved.
I know that the story is modeled on Mormon beliefs and that apparently there is a space of time in there somewhere that ended up between books 4 and 5, but since the story is a stylized look at the 'saga', couldn't have everything that happened in Earthborn been summed up in an epilogue after Earthfall?
I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Card, or to Mormon beliefs in ANY WAY, but there was nothing terribly interesting in Earthborn.
***Im probably going to get into some spoilers here so you might want to avoid this***
The entire nation that came from Elemak was only touched upon, Elemak never got what should have been coming to him, the Keeper of Earth is apparently the Earth? Did I get that right? I was waiting and waiting to find out what this character was and I come to find that it's something that 'cannot be fully explained because humans cannot handle it'. AWW!! Come on! That's like finding out the Aliens in Contact made themselves look like her father!
People outside the gornaya were completely forgotten and barely touched upon, there wasn't much done with the golden leaves of the Rasulum (did I spell that right?) the entire religion sequence that took up a good part of the book was not very interesting either. Couldn't have something more interesting been written in it's place? I know that people in Darakemba were descendants of Nafai and all that but there were other descendants like those from Elemak, Meb, etc.
I'm sorry if I seem upset or that I'm criticizing something that Mr. Card spent lots of time on, I don't mean for it to be like that, but I honestly felt like I had just re-read the 5th book in the Hitchhiker's Guide series. At the end, Adams just said "feh.. I'll end it like this." because he was tired of writing the books. Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I must entirely disagree with you! I am not mormon, and while I did ATTEMPT to read the book of mormon after I found out that's what homecomming was based on, I never did manage to get as far as the part where Earthborn would come into play. However I think you and I have entirely different reading styles because you seem to have missed some of the things that I thought were the absolute best in the book.
Firstly, there was an "epilogue" of sorts in Earthfall that did gloss over everything that happened in Darakemba, but in a "happily ever after" sort of way. I liked the way that in Earthborn we got to EXPERIENCE what "happily ever after" actually means, making the point that no matter how many battles are fought, nothing ever goes along perfectly later.
The Elemaki were only touched upon because they weren't really all that important. The only thing important about them was the fact that they existed and the way they related to the decendants of the Nafari, since the keeper of earth had pretty much already written them off, and allowed them to live in uncivilization and destroy eachother as they chose.
As far as to WHAT the Keeper of Earth was, I did not interpret it as being the Earth at all. Rather I saw what Shedya saw as merely being an explanation for how the Keeper WORKED. I saw this as a reference to God, and a reference to how God uses natural forces to influence life. Maybe I was wrong, but that's how I read it. In this I was actually very happy. Card had set the Keeper of Earth up as a god for a very long time, and it would have been dissappointing for him to believe he could actually describe every attribute of God well enough for Shedya to actually get a complete grasp on him/her as a being.
As far as the golden leaves go, I think they served exactly the purpose they were supposed to, they weren't some sort of grand story line, merely a prop to through a stick into the current religious theory of the day, and make people think. They served their purpose, helping Shedya better understand the Keeper, helping Motiak and his daughter understand their place in the world, and giving the royal sons and Akma a clear way to have "adolecent rebellion against the establisment" and set themselves up as the enemy of the Keepers work.
The decendents were all taken care of. All the Elemaki decendents are in the Elemaki lands, and not needed. By the time we get to this time and place, and the Nafari decendents (including Nafai, and all his brothers) have already interbred, though it does say they trace their ancestries back for meetings and such. It's really pointless to have them do more. I'm certainly glad that it wasn't like reading the Illiad where you have an entire chapter or random guy begot random guy who begot some other guy. As much as I loved Nafai, and Issib, and Okya, I didn't need a whole chapter of made up names just to set the stage.
I know this was pretty long, and I hope I didn't sound to offensive anywhere. I certainly didn't mean to be, I just get "lively" when debating something I'm passionate about, and this series is probably my favorite of all time (except for maybe the Chronicles of Narnia) and so I'm quite passionate about it. All in the nature of good discussion though.
P.S. I didn't think that the Alien's identity in Contact was that big a deal. Of course, I didn't think the story line in Contact was really of much importance either. I though Contact, like Starship Troopers, was mosty a way of sneaking lots of political and philosophical essays by the authors into a bare bones fictional account so that they could trick people into reading them. I enjoyed both books immensly, but not for their stories.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
DDDaysh
Not at all my friend, your comments were clear and concise, not at all insulting. =)
Maybe I did in fact gloss over the epilogue in Earthfall, or maybe I forgot it! It has been about a year since I stopped reading Earthborn for the first time, and even then I only got about 4 chapters in and stopped because I was turned off by it. I suppose you're right about the Keeper, I can see the God connotations now, and I have to admit it does make sense but the entire theme of the series was 'coming home', and while Humanity did come home to Earth after it had been prepared, it wasn't *really* what the first 4 books made it out to be.
Instaed of everyone living in harmony on Earth, there are still wars, Kingdoms, borders, etc. The Elemaki are (to me) very important because they will obviously try to make war with Darakemba at some point. The Oversoul never completed it's mission. It lasted 40 million years, started to break down, came to Earth to get repaired and then sent a probe back to Harmony.
It's job as the Oversoul was to watch over humanity and make sure they behaved themselves so that when Earth was 'finished' by the Keeper, humans would be ready to come home - but humans had not changed, in all that time so the Keeper, as well as the Overosul all failed their missions.
I dunno, I *loved* the first 4 books. Absolutely *loved* them, probably even more than the Ender saga, and that's a hard story to beat. The first 4 books were written so well that I actually loathed reading about Elemak. He and Mebbekew would make me literally angry when reading about them. I even posted a thread about that here some time ago. They were so lifelike, so real that I would literally slam the book shut when I would finish a section and walk away in disgust with Elya's behavior, and I'd rant about it to my wife as if a co-worker was harrassing me! HA!
But book 5, to me was just so boring. It was like I was reading a simple history book that didn't tell me anything other than "And then this happened, after that some more stuff happened... and this guy got killed.. so then the king did this... and then this happened."
It was just so disappointing for me. After 4 simply amazing books, I was really let down with Earthborn.
Posted by CalvinandThomasHobbes (Member # 9158) on :
I think that no matter what the keeper of earth was revealed to be you would be dissapointed. I was too. Also, when I read it I thought of the Keeper of Earth as a sort of natural artificial intelligence. But when I reread the book it seemed like what DDDaysh said. I think if you reread it you might be less dissapointed.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I can remember my mindset the first time I started Earthborn and stopped reading it. Because for me the only payoff would be if we really got to see the Keeper of Earth in an unambiguous revelation, and someone told me that didn't happen. A few years later, though, I decided I wanted to read it so I re-read the series and went through it, and found it very rewarding.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I know that the story is modeled on Mormon beliefs
I disagree with this. It's modeled on the plot and structure of the first part of the Book of Mormon, not on the beliefs or doctrines it teaches.
quote:I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Card, or to Mormon beliefs in ANY WAY, but there was nothing terribly interesting in Earthborn.
For you. I personally thought what happened to the characters was interesting. I was dissapointed that there wasn't another book continuing their story.
But then, I didn't care all that much about the Ovemind (is that what it was called) and the Keeper of Earth. I cared much more about the human (and alien) characters rather than the big questions.
Actually, that's not completely true. The first time I read the series, I had similar complaints as you, and was pretty dissatisfied with the series. But when I re-read it years later, I was astounded at how much I loved the stories.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I agree that you might want to reread Earthborn. The first time I read it I had some of the same feelings that have already been expressed. I was disappointed that we didn't get to follow the characters that I had grown to love. However, I think that if/when you read it without those feelings clouding your perception you may realize that the characters introduced in Earthborn are very interesting and entertaining in their own right.
While the last novel isn't a direct continuation of the same story, it was definitely (IMHO) a part of the story that needed to be told. I remeber reading the 3rd and 4th stories and hoping that we would get to see some sort of conclusion that rapped everything up, not necessarily in a neat little bow, but in a way that you don't need to follow the story any more to know that everything will turn out well.
In short: I thought book 5 of the Homecoming Series was exactly what it needed to be, and I think that if you read it without any bias you will agree.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
Yeah, I can see where you're point is vonk, if Earthborn had been a book of it's own, and not part of the series, (with a little extrapolation at the beginning so you're not totally lost) it could be a good read, I just think it wasn't a very good ending to the Journey of Nafai and the Oversoul.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: ]I disagree with this. It's modeled on the plot and structure of the first part of the Book of Mormon, not on the beliefs or doctrines it teaches.
Oh, I see. I'm not real clear on it. I thought it was based on Mormon beliefs, not one of the Mormon publications.
Sorry about that. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You're fine. Posted by Lucky_Sean (Member # 6223) on :
I liked it.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
I read the First in the Homecoming series. Started on the second, only to find myself terribly bored and somewhat confused. Tried the third book, knowing how good OSC is at writing self-contained sequels. Which story is better out of Earthfall and Earthborn?
quote:Akma was born in a rich man's house. He remembered little from that time. One memory was of his father, Akmaro, carrying him up a high tower, and then handing him to another man there, who dangled him over the parapet until he screamed in fear. The man who held him laughed until Father reached out and took Akma from him and held him close. Later Mother told Akma that the man who tormented him on the tower was the king in the land of Nafai, a man named Nuak. "He was a very bad man," said Mother, "but the people didn't seem to mind as long as he was a good king. But when the Elemaki came and conquered the land of Nafai, the people of Nuak hated him so much they burned him to death." Ever after she told him that story, Akma's memory changed, and when he dreamed of the laughing man holding him over the edge of the tower, he pictured the man covered with flames until the whole tower was burning, and instead of Father reaching out to rescue his little boy, Akmaro jumped down, falling and falling and falling, and Akma didn't know what to do, to stay on the tower and burn, or jump into the abyss after his father. From that dream he awoke screaming in terror.
Okay, that may be the best prose I've ever read.
Posted by Ayren (Member # 7317) on :
Thank you Punjabee I've had the same thoughts since I finished Earthborn but have been too lazy to actually post something here as you have done. I would have much preferred to hear more about the former inhabitants of the planet Ramadan. Frankly, to me the whole book seemed like one big fable, unrealistic with some obvious moral at the end.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Well, I think knowing more about the Ramadan inhabitants would mean a whole new series, not just one book, but I don't really understand what you mean by a fable, could you elaborate?
Posted by Dewdman42 (Member # 9588) on :
I personally felt the whole series was such a blatant, story for story rip off of the Book of Mormon that I was totally turned off by the story. I read it through to the end, hoping for a twist, but no twist ever came, enough to satisfy me. I expect better from OSC I guess. Now that he has gotten this out of his system I hope he will go on to write some new stuff that is better. I loved the Ender stuff and also the story about Christopher Columbus.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
If the point of the books was to re-set the stories of the book of mormon in a new universe, why would there be a major twist?
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
That's like reading a Bible story where Jesus doesn't get crucified.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
hmmmm... that just might BE an interesting setting for an alternative history book.... it would kinda blow the entire last two thousand years of history out of the water :-)
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
Unless he was still executed and believed to have been resurrected.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
It's not a rip-off of the Book of Mormon when it's intended to be an accurate adaptation of it.
The big twist was that it is set thirty million years in the future, and the Nephites and Lamanites are two different non-human successor species on a de-humanized Earth. And there are women in it - a gigantic, mammoth, enormous twist. Check your Book of Mormon. The second volume of Homecoming covers five verses of it. I made the rest up. Plus the whole women's culture here, and the city of Basilica which I thought was really cool.
Or is the thing that distressed you, Dewdman42, that it was based on the Book of Mormon at all?
At least you read it - thanks for that!
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
By the way, for a version of the Bible story where Jesus wasn't crucified, try Kate Elliott's brilliant Crown of Stars heptych. In that one, the story is that the based-on-Christ figure was flayed alive. Much more colorful - though actually closer to Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ than the New Testament version ...
Posted by K_heron (Member # 8893) on :
I really enjoyed the Homecoming series. They really made me think about a lot of things. I'm not Mormon and I don't think anyone has to be Mormon to appreciate them.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Glad to hear that, K_heron. I worked very hard to make sure that you don't have to be Mormon or know of the Book of Mormon to enjoy the story. I may have succeeded too well, since so many Mormons were irritated by it <grin>. Maybe it helps NOT to be Mormon when you read it <grin>.
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
quote:By the way, for a version of the Bible story where Jesus wasn't crucified, try Kate Elliott's brilliant Crown of Stars heptych. In that one, the story is that the based-on-Christ figure was flayed alive. Much more colorful - though actually closer to Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ than the New Testament version ...
You know, when I first read this I was just excited that one of my favorite authors likes the books of another one of my favorite authors. Then I started thinking...what is he saying? The blessed Daisan was flayed alive? By...by that Empress woman whose name started with "Th" (I'm really not good with names--She of the Mask works, right?), and then what? His life's blood flowed out and caused a rose to bloom? What heresies will you spout off next, Mr. Card, that God are not dual in nature but only singular, the Lady and not the Lord, and that She sent the Daisan to sacrifice himself for our sins or something? See, this is exactly why a good church education is so important. You take a perfectly honest man, expose him to Talia and Ivan and Sigfrid and next thing you know he's going on about "the miracle of the phoenix" and "the Rose of Healing" and sounding like an Arethousan. Clearly the work of the Enemy, and one of my favorite authors is going to end up falling forever into the Abyss if he's not more careful when he reads.*
Darn but I wish I hadn't loaned the King's Dragon to Liz so that I would have the almost-complete set. Now I'm missing the first and last books.
*Obviously I'm joking about OSC being a heretic. In Kate Elliot's universe, though, or at least in the Wendar/Varre part of it (or at least the parts which still follow church doctrine--darn her for having the heresy spread so that I need all these qualifiers), he would be (if he espoused the belief that the Daisan was flayed alive...going around explaining Mormonism--or even the larger set of Christian beliefs without going into the Mormon subset--would certainly get him in a lot more trouble). Those who are interested can look up the decision of the Great Council of Addai in the year 407: "The belief in the Redemptio--the martyrdom of the blessed Daisan in expiation for the sins of humankind followed by his ascension to heaven--is declared a heresy together with the revelation that he is the true Son, both Divine and Human, of the Lady. In strong language, the Skopos Gregoria (called 'The Great') declares that the only right belief is that of the Penitire, that the blessed Daisan fasted for six days and that on the seventh, having reached the Ecstasis--the state of complete communion with God--he was lifted bodily up to the Chamber of Light (the Translatus), and that the blessed Daisan himself claimed no greater maternity than that of any other human: a divine soul made up of pure light trapped in a mortal body admixed with darkness." ("Important Church Councils", endpages of the Prince of Dogs, page 617 in my paperback copy.)
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
lol.... I'd read the Homecomming series three times before I was reading "Woman of Destiny" or "Saints" or whatever the official title is now when Charlie starts summing up the Book of Mormon and I was like "holy cow, that's homecomming". I'm not mormon, but I had a book of mormon somewhere, and I had to go dig it out and read part just to see... On the other hand, several months later I met a friend online who WAS mormon, and at some point we realized we both read OSC books. He felt the same as Dewdman though, that it wasn't "original" enough.... I guess maybe not being mormon is an advantage.
Posted by hookedonpepsi22 (Member # 7346) on :
I just finished reading the series as well.
I'm not a mormon either but found that the story was a good read.
I noticed that these books,to me at least, had the most obvious religous based ideas what with all the faith and getting over being proud.
Posted by Cyronist (Member # 9691) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Glad to hear that, K_heron. I worked very hard to make sure that you don't have to be Mormon or know of the Book of Mormon to enjoy the story. I may have succeeded too well, since so many Mormons were irritated by it <grin>. Maybe it helps NOT to be Mormon when you read it <grin>.
I too, am not mormon and I did enjoy the books. I'm not too clear on the mormon religion, but I did notice a "Noah's ark" theme throught the series. A planet in turmoil, finding wives, getting the ships, all that stuff is very Noah's ark. I also noticed a Moses thing, where they are being led through the desert and complaining, even though the oversoul is provideing all they need they still whine. Just like Moses leading the Israelites to the promised land. Anyone else notice this?
Posted by hookedonpepsi22 (Member # 7346) on :
I thought that a lot of it was how the people with faith in God(or in this case the Oversoul) would be rewareded and those who fought against it and those who followed it would be punished for there pride and self-centerdness.
That pretty much is what I got from the Nafai and Elemak plot. Espcially since it says several times that if Elemak had not been so clouded by being a jerk he would have been the one to be in charge instead of Nafai.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I don't know if it was so much about reward and punnishment as it was about just generally being content. Not everything was always wonderful in Nafai's life, but in general he was able to enjoy good things and work through the rest. On the other hand, no matter what Elemak had, no matter how good it was, he was always upset and angry and unable to enjoy any of it because it wasn't ever enough.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I feel like such a dunce. I thought that the homecoming saga was based on the BIBLE... I thought it was weird for OSC to write something like that... But he wrote the women of Genesis, after the homecoming series, given, but still, based loosely on the Bible (And some pearl book that I've never heard of)
Then I read it and I was like 'Okay, I know it was going to be loosly based on the Bible, but, come on!' The only thing I noticed was a kind of Noah's ark theme... But the theme lasted for 3 1/2 books out of five.
But it's about the book of Morman. Boy, am I slow sometimes. LOL
Anyway, I read it, and its my favorite series of OSC's. So, regardless of the book of Mormon, OSC did an excellent job of having a story, in a addition to the book of Mormon.
I was incredibly engaged with the characters, Elemak always making me so angry! But he was so believable too.
At first, I thought the change from book 4 to book 5 was jarring, but, upon further reflection, I think that it was all very appropriate.
It's so funny, too. I've read so many of OSC's books, but the library only had books 2-5 of the homecoming saga, so I waited sooooo long to read them. (I bought book 1 on ebay, and then made a trip to the library.)
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
You people with libraries... you seem so confined by them. We don't have one here, so I've never been able to count on that. Still, if you look on Amazon.com, they have used books that you can often get, shipping and all, for less than $5, which with gas these days, might be about as much as you'd spend driving to the library. ;-)
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:I was incredibly engaged with the characters, Elemak always making me so angry! But he was so believable too.
This is what's so cool. The Book of Mormon person that Elemak's based on, Laman, is always just as angry as Elemak - but you don't understand why he has to be so prideful and see things the way he does. Especially to get to the point where he would want to kill his brother - and his own father! In OSC's work you get a more in-depth view of the characters and can understand more why they might make the decisions they make, and why they might feel the way they do. They're believable - whereas in the Book of Mormon they're really just caricatures, people put there to teach you a lesson, but not really believable.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Amazon needs a credit card or bank card. I have neither. LOL
My parents used to, and I bought all my books off of amazon, because I hate ebay.
But curiosity about the homecoming saga won out on my disdain of ebay.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Jenna, that's what I really like about the Women of Genesis series as well. In the bible they're sorta just random stories, half of which really don't make much sense - or at least make you question the moral standards being put into practice. In Women of Genesis you see an interesting idea of putting them in as people that really fits all the facts just as well, but with a human dynamic.
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