This reminds me quite a bit of Shadow of the Giant, where nationhood is sought by several nonpolitical ethnic groups. Eh? Eh?!?
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
I'm rooting for them--it'll make learning Guarani more useful.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
wait, i don't get it. are we talking about dual nationality parents? moms Indian, dads S. American? are we talking red dot or head dress indian? are we talking brazilian or mexican or father south indiginous people? Indian people that live in south american? S. Americans that live in India? American Indian, or Indian American? this is all so confusing.... or maybe i'm making it so.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Native South Americans mayan, incan, aztec, tlaxcala, etc. descendents
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
Most of the indiginous people being referred to are of Tupi-Guarani origins.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Link, please.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
[note from osc: site has expired, this link goes nowhere now]
[ March 31, 2006, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Orson Scott Card ]
Posted by IB_wench (Member # 9081) on :
More power to them.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
The border between Guatemala and Mexico artificially imposed by Colonialists broke the Mayan Empire into easily controled sectors.
The Mayans are quite clever. Remember, that EZLN territory.
The same folks who brought Emiliano Zapata to you!
A United Latin America is inevitable. Lots of money will change hands real quick, and the USA will have to take notice of it's poorer neighbors to the south with far more respect than before.
2012 is a date to watch, kids. We are all working for it here at home.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
btw yer link dont' work.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
'fore I forget...
A Mayan confederation of tribes could easily incorporate the Hopi, Navajo, Blackfoot... You could see Mayan Empire sprouts in Florida, New Orleans.. Anywhere where you have disgruntled Indians.
It would be wize for white folks to get their own Pow-Wows going. After all, Tutatis and Belenos are cherised by all French kids, and Thor is still a great comic-book.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The page was not found.... its getting surpressed!
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Its the Communists!
The Hippie Communist Fascists!!!
I will try to find another hyperlink.
HIPPIE COMMUNIST FASCIST.. um AUTHORS!
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Here is the problem, Robin. The cultures and political institutions of Ancient America are long dead and gone. Even less helpful is that if they were to be successful, tribal animosity would sprout up and a quick downfall would happen in at least a decade.
I am actually happy that the Ancient Indian cultures are dead. Many of the most powerful Indian cultures were more violent than the Europeans - although Europeans ended up more successful.
Posted by Sub-Odeon (Member # 9211) on :
I'm with Occasional on this one. Our current culture has so thoroughly romanticized and distorted the Native American, along the lines of the Noble Savage, that any talk of a "unified Native America" forgets entirely the fractured, bloody history of the many, many, many tribes which inhabited the Americas, prior to the white man.
Regardless of the historical perspective, any "nation" without economic, industrial, or military capabilities is not a nation at all.
It's a club.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Well, in that case, I have to bring up the fact that the Germanic tribes were nothing but a group of squabbling families, and that the Caucasians were once at a degree of disorganization to make them look like rome. The Americans also had a massive civilization that prospered and worked effectively, with the largest cities on the globe, but were wiped out due to over utilization of resources. Mel Gibson is making a film on that topic I believe.
I also have to ask why on earth you think that caucasians were less violent, modern civilizations have enacted massive massacres, from USSR to Cambodia, they were not less violent.
I have to cut this off but I will finish this statement.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Runningbear, I think you have to look at "were" vs. "modern" with your last sentence. There is no question for me that human civilization has regressed for every modern culture. I think the difference was that the Germanic tribes got organization. Indians almost never did.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
But what if this is the organization they need? what if this is their Barbarossa? Their Bismarck?
Also, What if Western influences never made it to the new world? there were forces at work at the time of colombus that might have organized the native people had they not been attacked and killed off.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"There were forces at work at the time of colombus that might have organized the native people had they not been attacked and killed off."
I have never read anything, other than the outdated noble savages treatments, that has shown this possibility. Most recent discoveries contend for the exact opposite. There were too many tribes and civilizations at war with one another. The most highly developed were bloodthirsty and territorial; taking other natives for ritual sacrifice and slavery.
I know from your name you probably are Indian yourself. I will admit that counts for something. On the other hand, both me and my wife come from areas of the U.S. where Native Americans are more than people in colorful costumes and feathers. From my observation, and a few of the things she has said, today's Native Americans are not ready for productive unity. They have too many societal problems and underlying tribal animosity.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I am not actually Indian, that is my name because my friends say that when I run I look like a bear.
The thing is that as long as there is no unification there is no chance for the removal of those barriers, and there has been a much greater level of cooperation between tribes today. Atleast in oregon, there are large federations of once quarreling tribes.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Tsk, tsk, tsk...
Occasional.. Are you not afraid that this might be turning into 'us' and 'them'? I mean, The Huixoles say that if Peyote stops growing in their native lands (which are quite extensive), the world will end.
I tend to agree with those guys, because ingesting Peyote I get many of the visions (with a little white-trash twist) that they get, and I can appreciate how one becomes 'guardian' of a sacred plant.
White guys are building, building, building. They like to use wood, a material that is going to cost us all our lives because if you cut a tree that took 200 years to grow, you will not be able to get it back until another 200 years have passed by, and the moisturizing, humidifying, oxygen creating aspects of this tree will be lost, hence, if white guys and white culture prevails, the earth will look roughly like Mars in about 50-100 years.
Get this, Occasional, none of us will back down. It is too late to let 'economic paradizes' ruin what little is that is life-sustaining in the earth, and folks who get in our way will get trampled.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Sub..
Clubs are wonderful weapons. They can be used to subdue. Swords, on the other hand, are a bit more brutal.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I just finished reading OSCs Pastwatch, which deals directly with what would have happened if Chris Columbus hadn't come to the americas. An empire would arrise out of the tribes in what is now latin america and take over europe bringing extensive human sacrifice to the world. i believe it was the Zapoteca and Tarascan. naturally this is fiction, but very interesting none the less. this doesn't have much to do with the thread, but i saw the link with OSC and had to mention it.
and, uh, i think it will take a little longer than 50-100 years for earth to get anywhere near mars. i'm thinking at least several thousand. not based on fact, just my opinion.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I'm no hippie, but I am of the belief that the earth has its own stabilizing "immune" system, there are many systems on earth that help to maintain stability by purging off certain species, cooling the planet, warming it etc.
Overpopulation is an example, species that overuse areas tend to die out, and eventually reach stability or die.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
By the way, that has to do with the idea that earth will look like mars in 100 years.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Actually, at the present rate of deforestation... hmmm.. 43. Just a hunch.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
By the way, the proper comparison is not with Shadow of the Giant, but Folk of the Fringe. The latter deals with the emergence of Native American political power after U.S. civilization is shattered by war and social decline.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Of course, you guys are talking about Science Fiction.
I am talking about inevitable historical gravity.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
BTW.
There was a warning issued November 18, 1992 by the majority of Nobel laureates and spearheaded by UCS Chair Henry Kendall regarding the problems of the environment.
In that warning, the fact was stated that since 1945 11% of the earth's vegetaded surface has been degraded (an area larger than China and India combined). That was back in 92. I wonder how much soil we have left were we can actually PLANT FOOD!
Time is up, kids. Capitalism and Democracy have failed us miserably. A new order is needed. I'm with the Christians on one possiblity: the Philosopher King.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
yes capitalism and democracy have failed, but where has anything else at all succeeded? i'm not sure that there is any point in america's esteemed history where you could accurately label the gov't democratic, but that may be nitpicking.
the amount of plantable soil in the world is undoubtably down, but there is still more than enought to support our population and then some. the combination of destructive habits of earth's more intelligent inhabitants is destroying the environment, but not at a rate that we would notice for a long long time. until its to late in fact. but not now. not in my life and not in my children's lives. maybe grandchildren, but hey, i'll be long gone by then.
and i have a feeling that humans aren't just going to go belly up when they realize they've screwed up their planet irrevocably. the scientists of the day will find newer, cheaper, better tasting food to make from whatever they can find (my vote going to human remains).
now i'm confused though, am i talking about historical gravity or science fiction?
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
both.
Science fiction has all too often become scientific reality.
a funny thing about studies is people take them at face value without considering alternatives.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Vonk..
that's awful pessimit of you. A Modern Day Hitler might do the job.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Ne'er forget uncle Adolf was a vegetarian. He would never approve of Soylent Green.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
are you arguing with yourself?
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Vonk, yes. All the time. I have a little demon on one shoulder and a little angel on the other, and the internal dialogue gets heavy.
I guess you could say it's a form of schizophrenia. I am also bipolar, perverse, addicted to various substances.. Hell, you probably wouldn't want me as a neighbor.
But deep in my heart there is a really nice guy waiting to come out.
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
ORIGINAL QOUTE SUB ODEON _____________________________________________ I'm with Occasional on this one. Our current culture has so thoroughly romanticized and distorted the Native American, along the lines of the Noble Savage, that any talk of a "unified Native America" forgets entirely the fractured, bloody history of the many, many, many tribes which inhabited the Americas, prior to the white man.
Regardless of the historical perspective, any "nation" without economic, industrial, or military capabilities is not a nation at all. ______________________________________________
Back to the calling South Americans savage... They were the first culture to establish a calendar that was within one day by following the lunar cycles, they knew more about crops and hunting then any other civilization at the time, When the spanish first came over to dominate them they could not kill them with guns as they were such such accomplished warriors, you can read historical articles of Spanish Conquistodors thinking these guys had the power of the devil himself. It was disease that got them in the end, disease that spanish happend to have brought with them. They may have practiced ritual sacrafice but hey WHO DIDNT?! In the USA they've burned witches in Gods name, bunch of hicks in the south hanged any one who's neck wasnt equally red, and this wasnt hundreds of years ago, more like 50. People kill for strange reasons all the time you cant bash their entire culture for it. Secondly do u really think their going to get back into ritual sacrafice?
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
ritual: A ceremonial act or a series of such acts.
I am with war chief, many different cultures (almost all of them) have had some sort of ritualized killing of other persons, and one must not give them a bad name for following the crowd. come up with a good reason instead.
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
and Robin seriusly man u gotta lay off the peyote it makes it hard to listen to any of ure ideas because i can immediatly pass them of as to much "divine plant"
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Mmmm...
Divine Plant...
when I hear that, I think celery, Wait. What does this have to do with south america?
Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
Peyote is a big thing in south america sometimes revered as the gods or gateway to, in some cultures they actually "hunt" it down and go through this big confession process before u can do it and after are considered clean. hence Divine Plant
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I know, I was just kidding.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Robin, I'm not sure that a united Latin America is "inevitable." In fact, nationhood for Indians is likely to lead to greater fragmentation. It is one of the strengths of Latin America that you only have to learn 1.5 languages to communicate throughout the region (i.e., Spanish and then pick up enough Portuguese to learn to understand it and be understood in Brazil). But if every surviving Native American language becomes the proud national language of a small country, the lingua franca (idioma hispana?) is gone ... or becomes English, like everywhere else <grin>.
If Indian nations had been allowed to evolve naturally, I think Latin America would be more prosperous than it actually is - but also more warlike. The artificial national boundaries imposed on the region by Spain and others have now persisted for so many centuries that I don't know that we could easily carve them back into something resembling rational boundaries based on tribal/civilizational borders.
Besides, the most famous of the native American civilizations were themselves imperialists - why should THEIR imperial boundaries have any more validity than the imperial boundaries established by Spain and Portugal? <grin>
At the same time, I have enormous sympathy with the nationalist aspirations of Indians. In most Latin American countries, Indian ancestry is still considered so despicable that one never admits to it in lofty society; the worst insult you can offer to a middle class Bolivian, for instance, is to call him "indio," even though it's relatively hard to find any Bolivians who don't have obvious Indian ancestry, and there's no rational basis for preferring people of pure Spanish ancestry over those with mixed blood.
What's really needed (and what will be the real benefit of these nationalist movements) is a resurgence of Indian pride, a sort of Red Is Beautiful movement, in which the MORE Indian you look, the more respected (and beautiful) you are, and people are clamoring to prove Indian ancestry. Then instead of a separatist movement, Peru and Bolivia and Mexico would BE Indian nations without having to create any new polities.
You'd still have some Latin-American nations where no Indian population survived at all - but they wouldn't be pure "European," they'd be pure African (e.g., most of the Caribbean).
Posted by pwiscombe (Member # 181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: BTW.
There was a warning issued November 18, 1992 by the majority of Nobel laureates and spearheaded by UCS Chair Henry Kendall regarding the problems of the environment.
And how many of those Nobel Laureates were experts on the problems of the environment?
Or did they possibly have a political ax to grind?
quote:Since February 16, 2005, the Kyoto Protocol has cost US$ 168,354,958,399 while potentially saving an undetectable 0.001745903°C by the year 2050.