Not unless you have a few hundred trillion dollars to spend.
Posted by Eva Scrye (Member # 8960) on :
With the right resources and political/social approval on the ground, I can't see why not.
There's geniuses all around, they just don't usually get noticed. Maybe they're smart enough to stay hidden ^_-
Posted by Zog (Member # 8996) on :
Ahhh, but perhaps we're already seeing Battle School in an embryonic stage...
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Very funny Zog, so funny I forgot to laugh.
But heres a new question if it could be done, what country would be most likely to carry out such a program? And for what purpose?
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Battle School ALREADY exists.
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
Lol.
No. I don't think it could exist. No, I don't think one should exist.
Why don't you give your opinion on the matter?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
I believe that such a thing should be done one day, on a much smaller scale to see what human potential could be if taken to the next level.
And Steve I meant a real Battle School not a virtual one. Posted by Eva Scrye (Member # 8960) on :
Hmm, but do people reach their potential only in war?
I would say not, but I'd say it comes closer than most people might think.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
The thing we've got to remember is that a true recreation of Battleschool involves taking children from their families and putting them through a brutal training program. This is not ideal.
Of course, the Janissaries were very similar . . .
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Which Steve are you refering to? And which Battle School?
My Battle School is real. It just needs to be oh, about...THREE TIMES that size!
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
I was talking to SteveRogers.
And ssywak I was talking about a Battle School people could actually fit in. Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
What is this, a Battleshcool for ants?
Or Formics? Are you sympathizing with the enemy?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Hey, the Formics were human sized.
And they aren't so bad, after all Ender learned to love them. Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Thank you, Black Mage. Someone understands!
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Oh come of it and get back on subject.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
ssywak I just downloaded your turnaround of the Battle Scool but I can't open it. Any ideas?
p.s. where did you get access to one of those machines?
Posted by Zog (Member # 8996) on :
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: Very funny Zog, so funny I forgot to laugh.
Who's joking?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
The American Army has no Enders, no Graffs, there is no one amongst these fools who has any kind of vision or military genius. The US Army has become too structured, too inflexible, more like the armies of Enders opponents in Battle School (which by the way is why all those armies lost).
The only advantage the US army has is the military tech that they keep so secret.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
Wait for it, wait for it:
In about ten seconds, some one will debate that comment, flame Advent terribly, and demand he back up all his statements.
Hey, it might even be me.
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Advent,
The AVI file should run in Quicktime or Windows Media Player; the JPGs in any standard image viewer. Which one is giving you difficulty?
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
The AVI file.
And Black Mage what part do you think I'm wrong on?
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Well for one that's a game that Zog linked to, not the real Army. (Though it was made by the Army.)
My guess as to why Zog posted that is to show how the military is trying their own little 'battle school' program for the younger generations. Kind of get children(teenagers, really) hyped up for the army before they can join. In a sense, a battle school.
And that is kind of a low blow to the US Army, and I do beg to differ on it. The army has shown a great capability for adaption under the different leaders that guide it. There are plenty of brilliant minds in the Army, to call all of them fools is rather rude, wouldn't you say?
(See, Black Mage? We don't need to result to flaming.)
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
Fine. Ruin my fun. I know how you love to do that. Just like on YWW. And Apollyein, I think.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Well I'm sorry for being such a dullard...
wait...
No I'm not. It's too fun for me.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Thanks for the defense Vadon.
And by the way that game sucks. Posted by Zog (Member # 8996) on :
The America's Army computer game is also interesting food for thought in its own right. It opens the doors of speculation into areas normally relegated to science fiction alone.
The game's makers maintain ladders of player performance. So what if certain high performing players were recruited by the Army to be a new kind of soldier? These gamers could sit behind computer monitors fighting as virtual soldiers, piloting roving guns on wheels.
As gaming tech gets more sophisticated, real killing could be made nearly indistinguishable from virtual killing. But would the Army even need to worry about such a distinction? After all, we're all quite used to watching war on TV, and popular opinion seems to be that each successive generation is even more desensitized to the idea of violence than the previous.
If the tech is cheap enough, and the fighting force is willing and eager, and it saves lives, why wouldn't the Army parlay its computer game into a fighting tool reminiscent of Ender's Game?
It's a rather haunting thought, fraught with moral questions that are ambiguous at best. And it sounds a lot like science fiction, but isn't that part of why we're posting here at all?
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Advent,
All I can figure is that you have an older driver for AVI files, or something in that direction. Have you tried D/L the newest Quicktime app from Apple?
The model was built on a Z-Corp machine. I went with a co-worker to a demo of Solidworks and the Z-Corp machine. They built a model for everyone who attended. I did the Battle School. My co-worker did a large "Escher's Cube" (you know the one: the stairs going off in all directions, like what they made for "Labyrinth").
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Thanks for the help ssywak.
And thats a damn cool demo!
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
It was a cool demo. But we bought AutoDesk Inventor, instead! (mixed emotions)
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Thats okay, I hear such machines are still pretty expensive. Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
Considering it from the children-geniuses point of view, I think it wouldn't be impossible at all... I mean, we've already got special schools for talented children, and a lot of parents start "educating" their children very early (after all, it's _vital_ that they speak 4 languages before they are 10)... and there also are boarding schools where children don't see their parents for quite a long time. So Battle School would only need a special circumstances (like an attack of an alien race ) and a few (not so big) steps forward in the education attitude... We already have children who are brilliant, children who start learning at a very earaly age and children who are far from home. We just have to put it all in one and take it a little bit further.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
:tapping his chin: Now if only we could geneticly engineer children like Bean. Posted by Penta (Member # 8950) on :
Problems though, oolung:
1. Normally, kids at boarding schools DO see their parents and the like during, say, breaks and summers.
2. The implication in EG was that, under normal circumstances (and presuming they didn't get iced), Battle School kids *never saw Earth again*, and definitely never did see their families again. Yeah, you read that right. Their going off to Battle School might as well be marked by holding funerals, like Jewish villages in Russia did for kids conscripted by the Czar.
3. No boarding school is as disconnected from the outside world as Battle School is said to be.
So what's this all mean?
1. Battle School kids would have some interesting issues of motivation. Frankly, a good question becomes: They're fighting for...What, exactly? Someplace they will *never* see? An abstraction?
2. How, exactly, does a Battle Schooler learn to live in normal society? Cuz, y'know, once they leave training, they'll have to.
3. Some really poorly adjusted kids. Even accounting for the fact that we only saw...odd perspectives of the place, there's nothing like the normal factors of life. There are few girls, and most of them are probably of the extreme tomboy type, so these kids (who're mostly boys, remember) will have no experience, no base of knowledge, from which to deal with situations like say, the inevitable crushes and puppy loves (if the staff would even allow such to develop), their own hormones...And, frankly, would be ill-equipped to live in society, generally.
Posted by Vasslia Cora (Member # 7981) on :
You also have to remember that these kids are geniuses, which is why they are in Battle School to begin with. In which they were trained to adapt quickly for all situations.
Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
sure, I'm not saying we're already at that stage and, as I said, that would need a special situation, but still... Oh, and didn't Graff told Ender they get vacation in Battle School (the first time when they're 12)?
Posted by Penta (Member # 8950) on :
Yeah, but how do we know that wasn't a complete lie?
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Well, technically, Ender did get a vacation when he turned 12...
Posted by Aryei (Member # 9025) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zog: The America's Army computer game is also interesting food for thought in its own right. It opens the doors of speculation into areas normally relegated to science fiction alone.
The game's makers maintain ladders of player performance. So what if certain high performing players were recruited by the Army to be a new kind of soldier? These gamers could sit behind computer monitors fighting as virtual soldiers, piloting roving guns on wheels.
As gaming tech gets more sophisticated, real killing could be made nearly indistinguishable from virtual killing. But would the Army even need to worry about such a distinction? After all, we're all quite used to watching war on TV, and popular opinion seems to be that each successive generation is even more desensitized to the idea of violence than the previous.
If the tech is cheap enough, and the fighting force is willing and eager, and it saves lives, why wouldn't the Army parlay its computer game into a fighting tool reminiscent of Ender's Game?
It's a rather haunting thought, fraught with moral questions that are ambiguous at best. And it sounds a lot like science fiction, but isn't that part of why we're posting here at all?
. I'm sorry I don't have the pop-sci article with me, or remember it verbatim - but they had this really neat article about how the military's taking the data from that DARPA challenge, where those robots drove themselves in the desert based on programming or something, and they're going from that to this 'Initiative' where they're supposed to to replace like, a third of our armed forces with different kinds of automated programmed machines, like, supply trucks without drivers, automated evac med vehicles, AND, of course, Tanks that walk like ants that shoot people. of course the machines with the guns will be remotely controlled at first, but gradually they'll just be commanded and watched over, and people will take the wheel remotely only when they feel it's especially important. believe it was in the Nov. or Dec. issue of PopSci. I'll look for it again and post by friday. cheers :-D.
Posted by Aryei (Member # 9025) on :
I forgot to post the point of all of that - I was meaning to say that they will have people controlling our weapons from a distance. they could, concievably, by 2035, have kids controlling these automated tanks and planes, thinking they're playing games... huh. Does OSC get royalties for that?
Posted by Penta (Member # 8950) on :
Nope. For one thing, it falls under what the patent folks call the "obvious to a reasonable person" standard.
In short, if it's obvious to a reasonable layman, no patent allowed.
And, well, that is a fairly obvious development.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
You brought up some interesting questions Penta, thank you for that. Its good to see someone taking this topic seriously. I believe that she has hit home on some of the major problems with finding students, not to mention how to keep them training for the cause.
But does anyone here have any logical solutions to her questions?
And does anyone have any ideas on what kind of cause would be so inspiering that you could keep such children motivated? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:For one thing, it falls under what the patent folks call the "obvious to a reasonable person" standard.
*laugh* Tell that to the patent-holders for "one-click online purchasing."
Posted by Penta (Member # 8950) on :
Um, just FYI. I'm male. Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115:
And does anyone have any ideas on what kind of cause would be so inspiering that you could keep such children motivated?
Hmmm, let me think... an attack of an alien insect-like species, maybe?
Naaah Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I think that it would have to be the parents that are motivated, not the children. Since they are introduced at such a young age, after a period of time they would be completely indoctrinated with the school's ideals. They would not even question the motive for what they do. It would be a matter of motivating the parents to give up there children for what could be forever. I think that that motivation would have to be blind fear and extreme ignorance. That is essentially what motivated the populace in EG. There would have to be some extreme threat that there is no informatino about, and no way to get it. It would have to be something not human, because human actions will never be completely unintelligable. Maybe something that evolved on earth, something viral maybe, or something from offworld.
Posted by Aryei (Member # 9025) on :
uhm, I'm back w/ some details from the PopSci article - 'in 2001 the Defense Authorization act was passed, which stated that one third of all opreational ground vehicles were to be unmanned by 2015.' so they make robocars that'll be autonomous except when they're controlled from a distance, by, say, soldiers who got high rankings in 'America's Army' or Quake IV tourneys. the last bit was guesswork by yours truly, popsci made no such suggestion.
Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
vonk: :where's the icon with clapping?!:
And I think some parent would be quite easy to motivate, for various reasons: sense of duty towards country/humankind/etc, ambition (it is something to have a child in an elite school, and there are some parents that would be able to do it for that reason). And when some people have done it, others would follow.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Sorry about that Penta, I just assumed that with a name ending in 'a' ment that you were female, sorry.
I'm not so sure that parents would choose to give up their children, Enders parents were furious when Graff came back for Ender, as were Enders fathers parents when the fleet came for their children. It is not a matter of motivating the parents, it is a matter of offering these genius children something such as freedom from terrible brothers such as Peter or offering them the chance to aid their familly as Enders father did.
And to oolung, I want reasons other than aliens alright. Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
But I think Ender's parents and Ender's father's parents weren't completely usual. They differed from others in maintaining their religious beliefs, so quite obviously they didn't feel like giving up one of their children. That doesn't mean other parents wouldn't have done it. Let's say, if Bonzo's father was as proud as Bonzo himself, he might feel his son going to Battle School was a kind of... elevating (can't find the right word). All I'm saying, there are all kinds of parents. If some are able to sell their children or to mistreat them, then I'm pretty sure you'd find some willing to give them up to Battle school.
As for reasons... can't think of anything else Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
The actualization of a battle school at all would depend heavily not only parents and children, but all of the citizens, whether their family would be directly effected at all. There are definitely selfish motives in the building of the school, but ultimately it is driven by altruism. They have to put aside national discrepancies and work for the good of the whole. At this point in History, I can think of nothing, alien or otherwise, that would unite every nation on earth to one purpose. Even if that puprose was to save the eath from an alien invasion.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
As far as Bonzo's familly goes that was more a matter of spanish pride, but I think you misunderstand (or maybe I just messed it up) that many parents would be forced to relinquish their children. After all i know that if I had children I would do everything in my power to stop them from being taken away from me.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Vonk, always remember that the strongest instinct of humanity is to survive, wether that survival depends on protecting yourself or your loved ones. It doesn't matter, but our strongest goal is always to survive.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Yes, Advent, but that instinct still doesn't lead humanity to unite; it hasn't yet, anyhow. Unlike Card, I don't think that even an outside threat to humanity's survival would lead everyone to unite in a common cause. There are always those barriers separating various factions, whether political or social or otherwise, that prevent complete unification.
Plus, self-survival does tend to trump altruism for most of the human population. The exceptions, when humans do unite, provide powerful examples, but those occasions are so powerful mostly because of their rarity.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I think the more likely outcome would be some faction or another attempting to use the battle school, or the temporary "peace" caused by a planetwide threat, to assert themselves as a world power. Then, the rest of the world will have to protect itself from that one faction, and eventually we would destroy ourselves and leave the planet as a gift for the attacking species.
i think that would be the biggest obstacle to a battle school. in EG and the Bean stories that followed, the more aggresive nations were able to wait until the threat was over before they tried to gain power. in todays world, i do not believe they would have the patience.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
CRash can you think of a more rare situation than possability of our race going extenct?
And to vonk yes I remember all too well how Earths governments break the Warsaw Pact to gain control of the battle schoolers.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Just because an situation is unlikely does not make it automatically one of those occasions where humans unite. In fact, I would assume that such an unknown and unforeseen situation such as facing sudden extinction would only make it more likely for humans to take the more selfish course, rather than join together. The more "rare" the situation, as Advent puts it, the higher probability of humans reverting to the norm rather than doing the unusual and uniting.
I agree with vonk that the selfish aspect comes into play on a national scale as well, the desire for power. That selfishness would very likely destroy any attempts at an "impartial" Battle School.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Maybe I, like OSC, like to view humanity as being a little better than that. Or at least I can hope we are.
Posted by tms (Member # 9017) on :
Better? That's the grey word for me. I'm up for beauty. And the more beautiful option is that the human race survives.
I have no concrete predictions myself but I sway towards Advent here, though some nights I've been convinced that CRash's view about fortress-mentality was the go.
Then I think of freaks in the course of history when personal willpower, smarts and unseen circumstances have altered everything. Things even Bean couldn't see coming.
If I was shown Bugger propaganda vids and told I would die a terrible death like my father had in the first Formic War unless I threw myself into the war effort, I think I would look at my enemy over the border in the eye and we'd just know that it was time to share the sandbox. I don't know what good I'd be, OSC rarely hints as to what roles he imagines artists other than writers might inhabit in the Enderverse. (Zip orchestras? (SOTH) Tell me more.)
Was humility imposed on the peoples of Earth after the first Formic War? Humility's always good at dissolving selfishness,
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Thats what the Warsaw Pact was for. It bonded humanities governments under the single leadership of the Hegemony.
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. I'm sorry I don't have the pop-sci article with me, or remember it verbatim - but they had this really neat article about how the military's taking the data from that DARPA challenge, where those robots drove themselves in the desert based on programming or something, and they're going from that to this 'Initiative' where they're supposed to to replace like, a third of our armed forces with different kinds of automated programmed machines, like, supply trucks without drivers, automated evac med vehicles, AND, of course, Tanks that walk like ants that shoot people. of course the machines with the guns will be remotely controlled at first, but gradually they'll just be commanded and watched over, and people will take the wheel remotely only when they feel it's especially important. believe it was in the Nov. or Dec. issue of PopSci. I'll look for it again and post by friday. cheers :-D.
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