This is topic What in the he - ! .. hermione ; Rowling steals from Card ( spoilish ) in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.
Alright, so I've always thought there was /some/ similarities between the two worlds, but I'm half way through Order of the Phoenix and i'm getting a little ticked..
Cards World // Rowlings World:
Ender is part of a small group of special kids // Harry is part of a small group of special kids
Ender is specialer than the special kids // Harry is specialer than the special kids
Ender escapes from his home to attend a special school when Graff comes // Harry escapes from his home to attend a special school when Hagrid comes
Battle School // Magic School
Seperated by animal Armies // Seperated by animal halls
Battle Room Game // Quidditch Game
Ender Starts a Special Training Session Group for the Battles // Harry Starts a Special Defense Against Dark Arts Group
D.A. (Dragon Army), Ender's the leader // D.A. (Dumbledores Army) Harry's the leader
Ender has to battle the Buggers which the IF fought before Ender was born // Harry has to fight Voldemort which was fought by the Order before Harry was born
oh, not to forget their special mental connections with their enemy
I'll think of more and find more as I read.. Any opinions or additions?
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
No no no. There is no relationship whatsoever between the two series.
They serve entirely different needs; Ender is all about sacrifice and Harry Potter is ... all about.... sacrifice..
Wait a second.
OSC call your lawyer.
Just kidding. They definitely both feed the same need in readers, but the similarities you have mentioned are superficial. In word and tone these are very different series.
You wouldn't accuse Star Wars of ripping off Dune, or Le Morte D'Arthur, I'm sure.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
And get this...
Ender Wiggin has 4 syllables. Harry Potter has 4 syllables.
Notice how Ender and Harry both have 5 letters, and Wiggin and Potter both have 6 letters. Notice how both last names have a double consonant in the middle. Notice how both last names go Consonant, Vowel, Double Consonant, Vowel, Consonant.
... that's all I have, since I haven't read the Potter books.
-Katarain
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Posted by aragorn64 (Member # 4204) on :
Um...no. The two series really have no connection. I'm sorry, but I think you are just making inane connections.
Sorry.
Posted by BattleSchooler06 (Member # 6279) on :
personally i dont think that JKR would copy of osc books simply because they are both STILL writing parts of the series...kinda hard to do that i think...anything past the first books would have to be coincidence...IMO
Posted by RynoW1 (Member # 8365) on :
But they have VERY similar origins. It would be interesting to read Ender’s Game at the same time as the 1st Potter and look for all the ways they are similar. Then look at who came up with the concepts first. (hett heeemmm…Card). I'm into OSC and my wife is into Harry Potter and we both agree that there are several similarities...all of which are a little beyond coincidence. I'm sure this idea will be a little more obvious and discussed when the Ender movie comes out.
It's time to go to war with the Potter people!
Posted by Blackthorne (Member # 8295) on :
Oh well, here I go. *Spoilers*
1. Ender doesn't have any friends through most of EG, he has soldiers and classmates. Bean only becomes his friend right as Ender before battle school. Harry is part of the trio the entire series, with other friends on the side.
2. Bean might have replaced Ender at any moment, where Harry is the only one who can fulfill the prophecy. Not only that, Harry isn't the best at everything at Hogwarts, where Ender IS the best (excluding Bean).
3. Ender didn' "escape" his home. He may have escaped Peter, but it cost him his parents and Valentine. Harry had no regret leaving the Dursleys.
4. Battle school is only for the elite children, while Hogwarts is for all wizards (in Britain).
5. I'm not even going to bother with that.
6. The battle room is their life in battle school, and quidditch is just a sport (Battle Room world cup )
7.To be continued
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
They're both stories about a child who feels very isolated because of his gifts, but discovers that those gifts make him awesome. This is a story that naturally resonates with both children and adults, many of whom have experienced the first part, without every really experiencing the second part.
It's not surprising that two of the most successful young-adult sagas in modern Western culture address this idea, and therefore have parallels between them. It's a very powerful, universally-resonant idea.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
But they are still very different, in important ways. Ender's Game was not written for children. It is much darker and more hopeless for its protagonist, who really doesn't have anyone in the world that he can rely on. Even the person who loves him the most ends up working for the adults who, despite loving him themselves, still choose to exploit him. Ender is sacrificed almost completely for the good of others, against his will, and nearly loses his mind as a result. It's a tragedy.
Harry Potter is much more of a heroic story about a character who consciously overcomes evil with a company of loyal allies at his side.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
You set them straight in a way that I never could. Good job, Geoff.
Edit: I'm not being sarcastic.....
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
(which name is Geoff?)
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Actually both series are a rip-off of The Secret Garden and A Little Princess by Frances Hodgsen Burnett. Changing the sex of the main character didn't fool me! The orphanhood (or isolation from the family), the loneliness, the abuse, the unique talents and essential goodness of the main characters, the fact that in the end they triumph over adversity, the emphasis of the world of teenagers/ children over the world of adults . . .
The wand in HP and the "desk" in EG are clear parallels to the talismanic doll that gives Sara Crewe such comfort in ALP; the secret history of Colin and the Garden in TSG are prefigurations of the ultimate secret in EG (kept by ADULTS, just as in TSG!!!), as well as the secrets in HP which we have yet to discover. (Remember how secretive the ADULT Albus Dumbledore has been throughout?!?)
If I were OSC or JKR, I would contact my lawyer, as her estate clearly has grounds for a suit.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
the Harry Potter series isn't over yet. Neither is the Enderverse.
In a larger sense, The first HP book is for kids. Granted, the later ones are for a slightly older audience. Ender's Game is for people in their mid-to-late teens to early-to-mid-30s. I first read it at age 13, and it appealed to me for re-readings until my mid-20s.
They read very differently to me. Does anyone really think JKR stole from OSC?
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: (which name is Geoff?)
That would be A Rat Named Dog.
edit: You beat me to it!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
Posted by Rich Birdsall (Member # 8383) on :
I don't think that was intended as sarcastic. I think it was in reference to people who know other people's name within the forum use their first name. But hey, I could be off. haaha
Posted by aragorn64 (Member # 4204) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu:
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
No, I don't think that was meant sarcastically, but rather as a statement of this forum. That kind of thing doesn't usually happen at most forums.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
quote:All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
Prepare to be boarded! :pirate:
*assumes defensive position near Brinestone*
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
Let me assure you that Brinestone is a very not-sarcastic person.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by aragorn64:
quote:Originally posted by kojabu:
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
No, I don't think that was meant sarcastically, but rather as a statement of this forum. That kind of thing doesn't usually happen at most forums.
I dunno, I guess it just seemed like it because it's such an obvious statement to make, like duh, people call each other by their names.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
No, no, no, Brinestone doesn't make snarky remarks like that to people she doesn't know. Plus, it's good to not assume the voice you read it with is the voice they wrote it with.
Plus, Ruth's got some solid connections to some of the best debaters on the board.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Oh I know the thing about the voice you read it with thing - I've had some encounters with people on AIM because of it - and generally I don't. I guess I was just in a snarky reading mood today.
PS - nice adjective (snarky), melikes
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
Why, thank you. Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Wow, to be the focal point of such a pointless conflict ... Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
And to further confuse the matter by using a DIFFERENT name ... Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
(by the way, kojabu -- "Puppy" is Geoff as well. Same guy as Rat Named Dog, different username)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
for some reason I knew that Puppy was Geoff, I think it was mentioned in some other thread some other time.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
But do you know who Geoff is?! THAT is the question! Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Is he OSC's son? There was this part of one thread where people thought it was cute that Puppy called OSC "OSC" and I was like huh, and I know OSC has a son named Geoff... soo... deductive logic?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I read a thread like that (over a year ago) except he was posting as Geoff Card & was referring to Mr. Card as "Card."
(I normally refer to an author by his or her last name, too, but since I'm in Mr. Card's house I try to be more respectful -- or perhaps more personal. ) And as another aside, I always get a giggle when kids in my class write about authors in reviews or their journals and refer to them by their first names. Understand, I'm not making fun; they don't know the convention yet and I teach them. Still, it's cute when they write about how "Edgar" had weird ideas or that their favorite poem by "Emily" is "Nobody." And it's nice, too. It feels like they're reaching out toward some sort of personal relationship.
Posted by TheSeeingHand (Member # 8349) on :
You're all wrong. Harry Potter is a rip-off of Alvin Maker. Both of their arch enemies can control people.
Except the Unmaker is a billion times worse because he's more than flesh and blood.
And Alvin Maker never went to any school and he still knows more tricks than our young friend, Mr. Potter. :-P
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Is this a devious plot to confuse those who don't know who's who? Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
Well no crumpets Blackthorne.. of course she couldn't just take the exact same story and rewrite it.. well, yes, she could- but just because she took the ideas and formed them to fit her world, doesn't mean she didn't hi-jack them from Ender's Game- I mean really, "Oh I know! Harry, why don't you teach us to use defenses against the dark arts!"
-- starts as a small thought, and though Harry thought most people despised him, lots of people showed up to learn what he knew
Ender starts his little group practices, and lots of people he thought wouldn't come and came as well to be taught by him --
This is what tipped my iceberg above the surface.. - I mean, when the fifth Potter movie comes out, and Ender's Game the movie comes out- you can't say people won't raise a brow or two..
Judas
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I can't tell anymore who (if anyone)is serious in this thread.
Oh, and I agree with WHOever it was in SotG. Let's get rid of "whom."
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I've now made about three connections between the HP series and the Shadow series in the discussion thread on the other side. It's a fun game I play.
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
i still need to read the 6th before I can look over at that thread, sigh..
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Now that I know who Geoff is - er..sorta - the one thing I want to say is that who has said that she's even read Ender's Game and the Shadow series, etc. I'm not saying she has/hasn't, but there are a lot of books out there that many people haven't read, authors included.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
? Sorry . . . I totally didn't get that last post.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Haha I was distracted by who Geoff was so I didn't post anything about the actual thread topic. Still not 100% clear on who he is, aside from having multiple usernames. Anyway.
We don't know if Rowling has read Ender's Game; if she hasn't then anything that was "stolen" is just a coincidence.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Heh heh ... yeah, I was wondering why you were using the third-person FEMININE singular pronoun to refer to ME. I mean, maybe you could use that pronoun to refer to the OTHER two members of my family, but ...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah, y'all wanted to know? Cool. Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Rivka, you're too clever by half. Just keep it to yourself Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yessir. Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
quote:Alright, so I've always thought there was /some/ similarities between the two worlds, but I'm half way through Order of the Phoenix and i'm getting a little ticked..
Cards World // Rowlings World:
Ender is part of a small group of special kids // Harry is part of a small group of special kids
Ender is specialer than the special kids // Harry is specialer than the special kids
Ender escapes from his home to attend a special school when Graff comes // Harry escapes from his home to attend a special school when Hagrid comes
Battle School // Magic School
Seperated by animal Armies // Seperated by animal halls
Battle Room Game // Quidditch Game
Ender Starts a Special Training Session Group for the Battles // Harry Starts a Special Defense Against Dark Arts Group
D.A. (Dragon Army), Ender's the leader // D.A. (Dumbledores Army) Harry's the leader
Ender has to battle the Buggers which the IF fought before Ender was born // Harry has to fight Voldemort which was fought by the Order before Harry was born
oh, not to forget their special mental connections with their enemy
I'll think of more and find more as I read.. Any opinions or additions?
Most of these are, as was said previously, superficial likenesses. Here's my $0.02 on the points you bring up, so take it or leave it.
*SPOILERS* Fairly warned be ye. This contains some spoilers from both the new novel, HBP, and since the topic creator hasn't finished OotP, this contains spoilers from that too. SO, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ HALF-BLOOD PRINCE, READ NO FURTHER *SPOILER*
1. Ender is more of a loner by nature, from what *I* understood of the book when I read it. This of course, may not be true; I've only had the time to read Ender's Game twice, the second re-read having been some time ago, so forgive me if my memory of the books is a bit off. Anyways, Harry is not so much of a loner. He enjoys having friends (though, only ones that aren't superficial and like him because he is who he is) and tried hard to keep them intact, despite the rocky moments they had.
2. Harry is, in fact, not really "specialer" than other kids by birth, which Ender was. Harry was given several of his powers when Voldemort's curse "marked him as his equal" and gave him the scar. An example of a power that makes him "specialer" is his ability to speak and understand Parseltongue. And in addition to this, Harry doesn't want to save the entire world. more or less, he wants vengeance against Voldemort, Snape, and Bellatrix for the deaths of his parents, Sirius, and now Dumbledore.
3. Ender left someone he loved behind, as well as his parents, who he at least had respect for (I can no longer remember if he still loved them before he went away). Harry had neither of his parents, and his adoptive family he could not wait to get away from.
4. It's important to note that no matter what, the protagonists of both novels are children/teens, and as such, any place of learning they go to will be called a "school." What they learned their and for what reason differed as well. Ender learned realistic things, such as math, science, and the like. Harry learns whatever he chooses to learn, and most of it is not-realistic at all. The most realistic classes there are History of Magic and Arithmancy. Also important to note is that acceptance into Hogwarts isn't mandated by the government; anyone who was a witch or wizard was able to attend the school (or others like it, since there ARE other schools, and there is only ONE Battle School).
5. Actually, you're slightly off. In Hogwarts, the houses are named for the four founders of Hogwarts, not animals. the animals they most preferred, however, did become the mascot for that House. However, each person is in that particular House for a reason, and it is because of a personality trait, the knowledge they have, or the choices they make that separate them (such as bravery and loyalty going to Gryffindor). In Ender's Game, the team assignments held little significance of this nature.
6. These two are probably the least alike that you put up. The whole point behind the Battle Room games were that it helped teach strategy to students and gave those overseeing it to spot who was most valuable to them. Quidditch is merely a sport, a sidetrack. Heck, any novel that has a sport the characters play that is made up could be compared to the Battle Room game if you look at it the way you are. It's really not that similar. Also, people are hand picked and a very small minority of students play Quidditch, whereas everyone but Launchies has to play the game.
7. This one is also kind of iffy. Ender, from my recollection, starts it with just a very small handful of people, in the effort to get better during their freetime. Harry starts his because they have little alternative: OWL exams were coming up, and Umbridge kept from teaching them anything of value in DADA classes, so he took matters into his own hands. Also, note Graff and the other superiors only stopped Ender from holding his sessions to try and keep Ender from bonding with people, to challenge him (again, as I recall) and only after they'd been held for some time. Harry's meetings were illegal from the beginning, and Umbridge did it indirectly, to keep Harry and the other Gryffindors from playing Quidditch, and to keep students from plotting against her.
8. Note that Dragon Army was something Ender was more or less forced into, and that Dumbledore's Army was made of sheer will. Also, the phrase "Dumbledore's Army" comes from the fact that Fudge said himself he thought, at some point, that Dumbledore was assembling the students to form an army to overthrow him. The students knew Fudge thought this and used the term as an act of defiance.
Also, Dumbledore's Army ended up dying off because it was betrayed by someone from within, whereas Dragon Army was killed off when Ender was forcibly taken from it.
9. Here, this is kind of an interesting point. However, you should realize that the Buggers aren't and never were immortal. They could be easily killed off, albeit destroying all of them was a huge and dangerous feat. Voldemort is not immortal per se, but for all intents and purposes, he basically is. He split his soul into seven pieces, and only through destroying all seven can he finally be killed.
Also, the fight against Voldemort has always been defensive: both times, it was defensive, whereas the time Ender fought and killed them, it was offensive.
10. This one is a bit odd to answer as I recall very little of it, and was never able to read the rest of Ender's story (Speaker for the Dead and on)so I may not answer this one as well as I'd hoped.
Basically, consider how it came about. Harry's insight into Voldemort's mind are strictly involuntary, as neither he, nor Voldemort, really want to have that connection. Also, the connection was not forger willingly. It was only made when the killing curse rebounded against Harry and hit Voldemort. The connection between Ender and the Buggers was initiated by the Buggers willingly.
Extra: And I'd also like to point out that Harry becomes famous for something he did not do, which was breaking Voldemort's power; his mother's act of sacrifice for him put a special magic on him that caused the killing curse to rebound and hit Voldemort instead. Ender, while he didn't know what he did, still committed that act that made him famous.
Hope I did those points some justice. Onto the next (phew!)
quote:Well no crumpets Blackthorne.. of course she couldn't just take the exact same story and rewrite it.. well, yes, she could- but just because she took the ideas and formed them to fit her world, doesn't mean she didn't hi-jack them from Ender's Game- I mean really, "Oh I know! Harry, why don't you teach us to use defenses against the dark arts!"
-- starts as a small thought, and though Harry thought most people despised him, lots of people showed up to learn what he knew
Ender starts his little group practices, and lots of people he thought wouldn't come and came as well to be taught by him --
This is what tipped my iceberg above the surface.. - I mean, when the fifth Potter movie comes out, and Ender's Game the movie comes out- you can't say people won't raise a brow or two..
Judas
You're forgetting how many millions of books have been written over the years. I mean, seriously! At some point, especially now that we mass produce books and the number of authors increases every year, idea begin overlapping. I suppose Halo (the video game) rips off of Ringworld, right? They both have ring-shaped worlds, so they MUST be ripping each other off!
Well, no. Harry is a teen, and therefore, goes through what most teens all go through. School. It's no surprise that Ender, a child and teen (as the book progresses) goes through a school too. And if both characters weren't special, the plot would collapse because it relies on the protagonists to be different; most books do.
Hope that helps a bit. Anyone feel free to correct any mistakes I might have made on the bits about Ender's Game, and if any other Potter nuts see a mistake I might've made about HP, feel free to jump in too.
Edited because I can't order my paragraphs correctly, it seems. X)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Heh heh ... yeah, I was wondering why you were using the third-person FEMININE singular pronoun to refer to ME. I mean, maybe you could use that pronoun to refer to the OTHER two members of my family, but ...
Oops, I guess the fact that I was tired made me miss a few proper names in there. But who you are... still a question.
Nice post Hitoshi, I'd just add that the further you get in the Speaker series, the more Ender tries to initiate contact with the Buggers. Harry doesn't sit around trying to perform Occulemency on someone whose location is unknown.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
It is conceivable that JKR read Ender's Game - it was published in Britain during a time when she was reading in the genre. But any similarities can be explained either as puppy did - both authors tapping into human universals (cf. Northrop Frye) - or as the kind of unconscious influence that happens all the time, where one writer's story gets absorbed into the worldview of another, and the second writer then "rewrites" a story that has become an important part of his or her psyche.
It's the way I "rewrote" Lloyd Biggle Jr.'s "Tunesmith" as "Unaccompanied Sonata." I had forgotten the existence of this story, though it was very important to me at the time of reading it. The similarities are real, but "Unacc.Son." is still mine. If (and that's a big IF) JKR read Ender's Game, and it had anything to do with her development of the ideas in the HP series, then I'm very proud to have had some role in the development of the thinking of such a wonderful writer. But HP is hers, and hers alone.
Nobody needs to call their lawyers, in other words. Ideas belong to whoever believes in them and cares about them. Only when actual LANGUAGE is taken uncredited from another work is there any case for plagiarism. I could take the plot of Gone with the Wind and create my own pastiche and as long as I didn't use names or language or otherwise damage the commercial value of the original, there would be no case against me.
As for Frances Hodgson Burnett - her works are in the public domain, so we can steal them ALL WE LIKE (nya-ha-ha). Yes, I know you were doing reductio ad absurdum. But it's worth pointing out, for sheer amusement, that I did not read any FHB until after Ender's Game had been published. Long after. Now, of course, I intend to steal from FHB all the time ...
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I'm still going to be suspicious if the 7th book turns out to be Harry Potter and the Giant's Drink...
Posted by aragorn64 (Member # 4204) on :
Hey, Mr. Card, did you know that nya is the Japanese equivalent of a cat mewing? ...at least that's what I've been told. 0_0
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
So the American sound of taunting - "nya, nya-nya nya nya" - and the sound of a Japanese cat are identical. Well duh. Cat-speech IS taunting. They know no other language.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Never read Book of Night With Moon, hmm? Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: So the American sound of taunting - "nya, nya-nya nya nya" - and the sound of a Japanese cat are identical. Well duh. Cat-speech IS taunting. They know no other language.
That's not true. They're all fluent in whining for attention, too.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I'm so sorry. I forgot whining. And that's odd, because of course after I kick their arrogant taunting little butts, I hear a LOT of whining.
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
I'd actually /like/ to think that it was your work that inspired her.. - Anyone know if she has a forum that we can bring subjects up to her attention? Or is only Scott that cool?
Judas
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Check mugglenet.com
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: I'm so sorry. I forgot whining. And that's odd, because of course after I kick their arrogant taunting little butts, I hear a LOT of whining.
On the subject of Rowling's influences, I think, based on this review, that Jane Yolen's Wizard Hall, is a better place to look. But I haven't read it, so I can't be sure. Perhaps Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea is another option. But I think that there is a long tradition of stories about people going to study magic, for example the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer's_Apprentice]The Sorcerer's Apprentice[/url]. Back when guilds were common, the story took that form, today it is natural that it takes place in a school.
Edit: Can't seem to get that link to work.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The link works for me. Maybe the kittens just love me more.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Maybe. Or for some reason you're not triggering the "this is a referred link stealing our bandwidth" sensors. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: I kick their arrogant taunting little butts
Kudos to Card! I almost murdered three cats. I mnaged to step on their tails (a pitch-black night), and managed to kick them a bit before they escaped.
In the US, are most street-cats one-eyed, or is it only here?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Jon, the incredible proliferation of mangy street cats is a phenomenon that Jerusalem does not share with most American cities. Not that we have none; merely that we don't usually have them in the ridiculous numbers y'all do.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
[Edited to remove snarky comment]
Jonathan, why were you trying to kill those cats? Were they attacking you?
[ July 25, 2005, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by starlooker (Member # 7495) on :
"I'm still going to be suspicious if the 7th book turns out to be Harry Potter and the Giant's Drink... "
*laughs very, very, very hard*
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: Oops, I guess the fact that I was tired made me miss a few proper names in there. But who you are... still a question.
Nice post Hitoshi, I'd just add that the further you get in the Speaker series, the more Ender tries to initiate contact with the Buggers. Harry doesn't sit around trying to perform Occulemency on someone whose location is unknown.
Thank you for the compliment, it's one of the few posts I've ever been bothered to get up off my lazy bum and write. =)
And good point; having not read the rest of the Enderverse, I wouldn't have known about Ender trying to contact the Buggers, but you are indeed correct. Harry is, in fact, relieved when he finds out he no longer has to worry about being mentally probed by Voldemort or vice versa.
As for whether JKR has a forum for these issues, I'm afraid she does not. However, she does frequent fan sites dedicated to her book and will sometimes respond to rumors on her site (www.jkrowling.com). Hope that's useful to you. =)
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
I had to wait until I finished Half Blood Prince before I could bring myself to read this thread. I am a very big fan of both stories and I am hoping the majority of the posts here are tongue in cheek but just in case I am mistaken, here is my view.
The stories are similar because both main characters follow the hero archetype (based off work by Joseph Campbell). This is something I teach my 7th graders and they tell me I have ruined every movie for them but they still it's pretty cool. My adaptation (for 7th grade minds) consists of ten parts. Plug in Ender and Harry to these to see what I mean (post them and I will come back and grade you... I miss school in the summer).
1. Unusual Birth: The hero has something that sets him apart even at birth. His family is different, the place or order of his birth is significant, or maybe there are strange circumstances surrounding his (or her) birth.
2. Separation: The hero is separated from his family and is raised by others. This is often cause by the villain's actions but not always. Childhood during this separation is sometimes painful.
3. The Call: This is a call to action. It is a significant even in the hero's life that starts him on the journey that will make him a hero although he rarely knows it at the time. He is often reluctant to go and sometimes this is not a happy event. (I teach the word epiphany here)
4. The Quest or Journey: A quest is a journey with a goal. A journey is more undefined and the goal of the quest is hidden from the hero or is never ending (in the case of superheroes). This is the longest part of the story and is a time where the hero faces many trials and tribulations.
5. Strengths: The hero possesses some sort of special power that aids him during the journey. It can be physical or mental or even a special weapon the hero finds along the way.
6. Weaknesses: The hero is hindered by a specific weakness during the journey. It can be internal or external and usually stems from something that happened during the separation. The villain often knows this weakness and plays off of it.
7. The Advisor: This is a person who helps the hero along the journey. This is NOT a peer or comic relief; it is someone older and wiser than the hero. The hero often ignores the help of the advisor, thinking he knows best and that sometimes leads to more trials during the journey. The advisor may be a supernatural or other non-human being and may be just the memory of someone.
8. The Villain: This person is often connected in some way to the hero's family and may have to be defeated many times. Other times, the villain may be hidden or disguised and part of the quest is that the hero must determine who he is. He often takes many forms, including that of the hero's friend (thus deceiving him and delaying the journey). Other times the villain is a stranger or a large outside force. (This is where I teach the 6 types of conflict)
9. The Atonement: This is where the hero makes everything right in the end. The villain is defeated or at least squelched for the moment. He comes to terms with the loss of his family (and is sometimes returned to them) and this is sort of a rebirth of the hero himself; an acceptance of who he is and his place in the world.
10. The reward: The world acknowledges the hero's accomplishments and he is sometimes able to return to everyday life although he has been greatly changed by his experiences.
I teach this concept using fictional (Harry Potter, Superman, Batman, and Luke Skywalker) and non-fictional heroes (Jesus, Abraham Lincoln, Mahata Gandhi, and Mother Theresa). I do NOT use Ender to teach it since I encourage my kids to read it and I don't want to spoil it for them. We apply this to Stanley from the book Holes that every 7th grader on my campus reads and with the mythology and independent reading we do throughout the year. It is one of my favorite lessons.
Sorry for the loooooooong post but I thought some people might find it interesting. Mandy
P.S. I hate cats too!
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Oh and THIS is what I am doing with my time instead of teaching how to diagram a sentence. Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Am I just a thread killer or what? I was checking out my recent posts link on my profile and all the posts I have written are at the end or close to the end of the threads. Either I am getting in on the thread late after everyone else has exhausted all avenues of discussion or I am the n00b with cooties. Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Mandy, I'm sure you don't have cooties! You really did come to this thread late. Try and get involved in a thread earlier, and you'll affect those posting after you.
Welcome to Hatrack!
EDIT: the other side of the forum - "books, film and culture" - is more mature, I'm sure you'll find it a fun place to hang out in.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Well, I thought that was a very interesting and concise explanation of the hero's story. And although I was too young at the time I first read Ender's Game to make the connection, it now makes perfect sense.
I wonder if EG was constructed that way purposefully or if it was just, you know, subconsciously archetypal.
How many of OSC's other novels would fit within the same mould?
Magic Street, for example.
Ender's Shadow, for another. (Interesting.)
Hart's Hope? Oh, my heavens -- The Alvinmaker.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I have one... Harry Potter books have been made into blockbuster movies and Ender's Game... oh, nevermind.
Though it seems like I was told by my mom that Ender's Game could have been made into a movie decades ago if OSC had been willing to make the kids older so they could have more romantic interests taking place or something. But it was important for the hero to be a kid because it was key for him to be young and malleable or something.
[back to reality] I think the take on battle school that has developed in the Shadow series is very interesting, that it is not the children's innocence that is the key to how things run but the necessity of occupying the ambition that has been bred into them. I wonder which view will come through in the film.
P.S. Forgot to turn the page before replying Now I'm all off topic. On the subject of cats, I don't know about Jerusalem but in Greece it was not so much the volume of cats but the default assumption that no one owned a given cat that contributed to the seeming wildness of them. Of course, I haven't experienced true inner city catness in America either. There were a few feral cat bands in SLC's city center, but there was generally an underlying assumption that a cat was owned by someone.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Beanny, I was kidding really. But thanks for the heads up about the "other" side. I'll check it out.
TL you'll find that LOTS of stories, even ones with unlikely heroes follow this pattern. The Alvin series does too I think.
Posted by Starr R (Member # 8361) on :
THANK YOU, MandyM ! I've been asking my library to send me a copy of Joseph Campbell's "The Hero's Journey" for a YEAR without success. This is exactly what I've been looking for, as I'm trying to write a YA novel for my teen.
Some day I'm actually going to find that book and buy it... .
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Sorry.
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Jon, Jon, Jon...![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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Now I'm all off topic. On the subject of cats, I don't know about Jerusalem but in Greece it was not so much the volume of cats but the default assumption that no one owned a given cat that contributed to the seeming wildness of them. Of course, I haven't experienced true inner city catness in America either. There were a few feral cat bands in SLC's city center, but there was generally an underlying assumption that a cat was owned by someone.