My precocious 10 year old, who loves reading, got me to let him read Ender's Game. OK OK I caved in. He knows there are more books and 2 series and keeps asking me if he can read the rest.
Just wondering what age everyone thought was appropriate for these series. There are some themes as the books evolve that are tough and complicated.
Thanks!
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
PG-13. There is some explit sexuality, but not enough to earn a R-rating.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Explicit sexuality? Whaaaa? Which Ender's Game were you reading? It was released in a Juvenile edition. I'd say it's a strong PG, mostly for violence. I'd recommend you read it yourself first.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Eye was talking about the sequels. Eye, I'd say the sequels are too advanced for a ten year old, unless he is really smart. If that is the case, I would give them a PG-13. Language, sex, torture and such prove my case.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Okay, I'm going to stick with the PG. Know what that stands for? Parental Guidance. Funny thing, eh?
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I still stand with PG-13. Speaker has torture and war. And there is language and talk of love that might confuse beyond be inappropriate. And then Miro falls in love with his sister, even though he doesn't know its his sister that is kind of bad.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Going by the current US movies out under PG-13, and what age levels actually watch them, I'd go with that as a guide for the sequels. Not just for violence and some content, but for the intellectual level as well. I managed first time at twelve, but most of the ideas were over my head, and the only thing I really wanted was the plot. The Shadow series is clogged up with military strategy and politics, while the Speaker series is concept-loaded, especially when it comes to Xenocide. I'd think the thinking involved is what deters younger readers from the books.
But Ender's Shadow is not the same kind of book as the sequels. It's a lot like Ender's Game, and not weighted down by too many theories and subplots. I'd recommend that one to anyone who's already read EG.
Posted by starlooker (Member # 7495) on :
If you think the others are too advanced for him (which they might be... not so much in content as in theme) maybe you should give him Ender's Shadow?
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
EG and ES are pg while the rest are pg-13 I think.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
*shurgs* The only warning I have is that's the age when I read it, it highly um... impressed me with Peter, to say the least. Didn't do much to me. I don't know what your son is like, but I'd say they aren't too bad, just make sure he's mature enough I guess.
Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
Thanks to all. I worried about EG originally with Ender killing 2 kids and the sometimes having to solve a problem with ultimate violence concept. Of course my son goes to karate and has learned the same concept! He plays ice hockey and (ahem) they have occaisional violence as well. But he got it all and we discussed it.
I think I'll wait before he reads the rest. Interestingly I'd read the EG series 3 times over the years before reading Shadow. When I saw Ender via that "lens" it was amazing. I wonder if reading EG then Shadow back to back diminishes the effect.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
If he can read and understand them, he is old enough.
Posted by olhando (Member # 7866) on :
well, it depends on what he knows or what he's ready for. i figure it would have been easier on your part if he hadnt found out about them for a good two or three years. but yea if he knows "things" if he likes fighting, if he likes the intelectual/philosiphical aspect just go ahead and buy all 8. but these are the kind of things i would hate about parenting, which is in turn why im not ever going to have kids. I mean if i was my parent, i wouldnt get away with anything. mine are simple minded enough to let me learn things, let me do things, and let me explore as much as i want to unconciously. thats probly a bad thing to you but in reality, i'm pretty beanish. Posted by delusional1 (Member # 7896) on :
people give kids that age far too little credit. that or they are in denial. when i was 10, i would have understood the emotional issues and moral dilemmas of these books quite easily. the science is what baffles me sometimes. kids understand a lot more than we give them credit for most of the time. we just don't know it because we, as adults/parents, are afraid to talk to them about certain things because WE aren't ready for them to be grown up enough to understand the concepts. god, i'm 24 and i sound like i'm 40.
anyway, i say let him read them. if he doesn't understand them enough, then he won't want to read them any more until he's older. and if he does understand them, then you take the chance to have mature conversation and discussion with your child, which can only be beneficial in the long run. i hope that my son wants to read OSC novels in 6 years instead of babied down books that insult his intelligence.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
quote: I think I'll wait before he reads the rest. Interestingly I'd read the EG series 3 times over the years before reading Shadow. When I saw Ender via that "lens" it was amazing. I wonder if reading EG then Shadow back to back diminishes the effect.
It didn't for me. I was nine when I read Ender's Game, and Shadow had just been released, so I read that one next. It was easier for me to concentrate on the characters in Shadow because the setting had already been established, and it gave me a chance to see Ender out of someone's eyes besides his own. For about 3 years, ES was my favorite Ender book.
I'd regard it as cruel and unusual punishment to withold ES. It's the same story as EG, and I think it works better, whichever order you read them in, if the first one is fresh in your memory. But yeah, I'd let a ten year old wait a year or two before introducing them to the Speaker or Shadow trilogies. I was nearly thirteen, and still had to really slog my way through the philotics and the politics. Now I'm fifteen, and it's easier for me to grasp some of the concepts, making them more entertaining reads, rather than books I have a duty to read because I need to know the plot.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
ES has the word "sh*t" in it.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Yeah. Like kids haven't heard that one before. I think that more swear words were actually used in EG than ES, though.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I don't write ANY of my books for children.
But I do warn parents who are about to buy Hart's Hope or Wyrms or Pastwatch for a young reader. There are some disturbing images and really vile events that I think are too strong for children.
My all-purpose answer to parents, though, is this: Except for actual pornography, any serious literature can be read by a child without harm IF the parents also read it and discuss it with the child, providing a framework to allow it to be understood and put into perspective.
That's how I survived reading Rise and Fall of the Third Reich at age ten. It shaped my moral and intellectual life in many ways - but they were, I think, good ways.
But without adult participation and discussion, even some G-rated books can shake up a kid's world. And you never know WHICH books (or movies, of course).
And I'm also a great believer in letting a child follow his or her own inclinations. Is this the book these kids WANT to read next? Then let them read it - and you read along.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I've had lovely experiences reading aloud with my 6-year-old. I let her choose what she wants us to read next, and we talk about it. Right now, we're deep into The Secret Garden. Ah, enchantment! Sometimes I do advise her, letting her know that I think she'd enjoy it more "in a couple of years". I did this with Harry Potter, mostly because I want her to be in school long enough to properly sympathize with Harry and his friends. But her non-fiction reading has already branched into embryonic development....
Posted by DemonGarik (Member # 7793) on :
I first read EG at age 9... Shadow was a few years befor being released, I tried with SftD and I'll be honest, it didn't hold my interest. As a young kid, it wasn't that it was offensive or anything, it just wasn't the quick action paced battle stuff that I expected in a sequel from EG. However the Shadow novels drew me in at once. When I got older I went back and read Speaker and the others, when my interests had matured enough that they held my interest. I think you should let your child chose his own reading. It can't hurt him, he'll become more curious at the terms and the intellectual stimulation in the book, or he'll find it less exciting and put it away for a few years. I don't think the shadow series has anything even marginally close to offensive/inapropriate except the scene where Virlomi approaches Alai/Peter in SotG, which still isn't that bad. I say, let them try and read them.
Posted by mraymus (Member # 8134) on :
I don't know if I'm beating a dead cat here by bringing this subject up again, but I've been reading a lot of OSC's lit lately and on just about every book I've been reading, I get excited and think, Okay, this is the book that he's not going to put any sex in so my kids and wife can read it. And then he goes and puts sex in it. Call me a prude, but why does he have to put sex in almost all his books. Worthing Saga. Great story! But then he puts that short story about the loop actress and ruins the whole book for me and for my kids. I love the story, but I don't feel comfortable letting my kids read it. Songmaster, same thing. Wonderful, beautiful, story, and then we get a sex scene with the Songmaster that that guy who ends up losing his member. Why? Why does there have to be a sex scene? What happened to the days of sex being implied? I know that OSC has said in other posts that he doesn't write for kids. What about adults who don't want to read about characters they've come to love and empathize with having sex. I know that it's a fact that people have sex, but I don't want to watch someone having sex on TV and I don't want to read about it in books. I'm so torn because I want to recommend these books to other people, but I'm starting to question what that says about me and my position on reading about sexual experiences in books. I just don't get it. I know it's too late to change anything, but part of me feels like going through the book and ripping out those pages that have the scenes in them and then telling my wife, here, read this, it's a great book. Because for me, without the sex scenes, OSC's books are the best I've read. I love his character development and the stories. Wonderful stories. I'd just like to do with out the sex.
I'd like to see a rating system of these books. I think that any book with a sex scene should be rated R or PG13, at a minimum. I'm looking through my library and I probably have 30 books by Card. And it's looking like at least half of them are books I can't let my wife or kids read without some kind of eediting. Then I look at some of the other books that I've read. Tad Williams, Dragonbone Chair. Three huge novels. No sex. Dragon Riders of Pern. Maybe a little. I can't remember, it's been a while, but I know there's some kind of implied sexual experience connection between the people and the dragons. There are so many other great books I've read (English major, what can I say) that tell a great story without having to talk about sex.
I digress. I'm just frustrated that there is so much sexuality in books written by an LDS author who out of the same computer came books like Sarah, Rebekah, etc.
Sorry, I know this has been discussed before, but I've just become more and more frustrated the more books that I read.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
No matter what you do your kids are going to find out about sex. And if the fact that you have kids is any indication, your wife already found out about it. Why do they need to be shielded from it? Sex is normal and portrayals of sexual activity in media (books, tv, etc) are a fact of life. It sounds SO unhealthy to me that you feel this need to protect them from any mention of it. Don't let them grow up to be ashamed and afraid of sex.
And the notion of a rating system for books is so repulsive that I won't even respond to that. No good could come from it.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Okay, I can't not respond to it.
Think about it for just a *second* ...
Huckleberry Finn uses the "n" word repeatedly. What would it be rated? Think about Ender beating Stilson and killing that kid in the showers, and tell me EG would be anything other than "R" using such a system. Think about the violence in the Lord of the Rings. Think about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird, in which the details of a rape are revealed at trial. In Harry Potter, Voldemort murders Harry's mother and father and tries, repeatedly, to murder Harry.
Would you honestly advocate robbing millions of kids the opportunity to read these and COUNTLESS other classic works of literature because they use foul language, or have sex scenes, or violence?
In books people do bad things. Kids reading books is a GOOD thing! A rating system that would make certain books unavailable to readers based on some kind of arbitrary moral framework is RIDICULOUS and repugnant in the extreme.
Posted by Luca (Member # 8135) on :
mraymus I can see understand, though greatly disagree, why you would not let your kids read a book that mentions 'sex'. But why would you not allow your wife to read the book? Im pretty sure she knows what sex is (little controlling aren't we?).
Its not like Card writes pornography. These sex "scenes" your all worked up about are little more than simply saying 'then they had sex.'
The idea of not allowing anyone under the age of 17 (R rating as you implied) buy the book simply because you are uncomfortable with a 3 letter word is ridiculous to an extreme.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Worthing Saga. Great story! But then he puts that short story about the loop actress and ruins the whole book for me and for my kids. I love the story, but I don't feel comfortable letting my kids read it.
As a specific response for this I'd like to point out that the main story in Worthing Saga and all of the other short stories can be read at no loss if you just want to skip that one.
Hobbes Posted by Inspired (Member # 8130) on :
What! I picked up Enders Shadow, which is much more violent than Enders game, I picked up with a PG-13 rating when I was ten! I still enjoyed the books, and the text was vague enough in a lot of his other books to not be explicitly sexual.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Enchantment doesn't have any sex scenes; although Ivan does walk around mostly naked for a chapter, and there are some lewd jokes near the end of the book.
I don't remember any of the Ender's/Shadow series having explicit sex scenes, and ditto with the Alvin series.
None of the short stories he wrote for the Friend have sex in them. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Incidentally, I first heard about Ender's Game while on my mission-- I'd already read Seventh Son but nothing else of Card's. What I heard about EG was disturbing. One of my companions was talking about the plot and said, ". . . and then one of Ender's commanders tries to rape him while he's in the showers."
I read it, and discovered that no such event ever happened. It's odd how the human mind remembers things, but I don't know how he attached 'rape' to the Bonzo/Ender fight scene.
What I suggest for my children, and for everyone really, is to ask the question: "Is this scene promoting the story, or just promoting wickedness?"
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
Classic example is in Hart's Hope with Beauty's rape. Did we need to be thrown into it so graphically? If Scott was to remain true to the story (which, taken as a whole was edifying) then yes-- that scene is essential to understanding Beauty's character. And it is the details of her thoughts and actions that we need, not the remebrance of what she felt.
The same goes for the sex scene in Songmaster. In that scene, we understand that the songbird is STILL a mirror of other people's emotions, despite his maturity. (OSC has commented on this scene, and has asserted that Ansett is not homosexual)
[ May 30, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by dab (Member # 7847) on :
my feeling is that unlike tv or film, a book that is too grownup for the reader will not interest the reader... sure there might be a few exceptions... but I know that when i was a kid, anything that was above my head was just not something that i was interested in reading.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
In regards to sex, if the kid is young enough, which in some cases, is the case. A vague sexual scene will not make any sense and they will skip through it, or read it as filler. I know that now when I watch shows or read books that I read when I was littler I pick up on tons of jokes, implications that I didn't find the bit sexual previously.
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
quote:Worthing Saga. Great story! But then he puts that short story about the loop actress and ruins the whole book for me and for my kids
mraymus, Worhting Saga was about a futuristic time. not today. Think about how much the standard on sex has dropped in the past 50 years. It will drop even more so by the time th Worthing Saga is supposed to take place.
Sex is a part of this world, whether we like it or not. If you really want the books to seem realistic, then they should be realistic, not some morally 'superior' item that refuses to mention ]the 's word'.
quote:OSC's books are the best I've read. I love his character development and the stories. Wonderful stories
You know why the characters are so good? because they seem like real people. people that you could sit down and have a real conversation with. That's because they are as real as any book character could be. They don't shy away from stuff just because some of the readeers may be offended by the stuff said or, heaven forbid, implied.
I just have one question, and i don't mean this to be offensivem, or anything liek that, i mean it in the most sincere way possible.
Why do you feel like you can't share these with your wife? is she not a grown woman capable of deciding if she wants to read that or not? I would give the book to her and say what is in there in the most objective way possible. I guess i just don't understand it.
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
btw, i didn;t mean to completely ignore the question originally asked.
I would give it a PG rating, because while there is some sexuality implied and stated, it is more or less presented in a way that makes it seem bad. at least in my opinion.
example: Miro's moral lesson: don't love anyone, she may be your sister.
seriously, the rest of EG series isn't all that bad.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Well, now, mraymus has a right to his standard, even if it isn't shared . . . but SINCE it isn't shared, mraymus, I fear you'll continue to feel frustrated.
You might try literature from 100 years ago, which did have this standard. Unfortunately, they didn't have nearly enough spaceships and aliens.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:Sex is a part of this world, whether we like it or not
And who *wouldn't* like it?!!
Posted by mraymus (Member # 8134) on :
Oh boy. I see I've opened a can of wyrms (pun intended). To comment on a few of the responses. I have no problem with the word sex. That's not a big deal to me. It's the description of sexual details that I have a problem with. I did put a disclaimer that perhaps I'm somewhat of a prude. :-) I'm not really, but I just feel that there are many other books, and they're not all 100 years old, that leave more to the imagination than some of the Card books I've read recently. (FYI, I've been on a Card binge lately, reading almost 20 books in the past month or so) I don't have any problems with my kids reading a scene that leads up to sex. Although I don't agree with extra marital sex, this type of scene I don't have a problem with. It's an opportunity for me and my kids to discuss the morals of such actions. And I never said anything about the Enders Game or Shadow series. For the most part, they are pretty clean, other than all the cuss words throughout EG, although not necessarily throughout the rest of the series. In this case, I understand how the use of all the cusswords helps the book, although I believe it could have been done realistically without. IMHO. But who the heck am I? I've never written anything, so how can I critique "a master?"
I guess I still just have some issues with his use of sexual experiences in some of the books I've read. Case in point. The 1st chapter in Lost Boys could be (and has been) ripped out. I known that the imagery there is supposed to give us insight into the psyche of the killer, but once again, would rather skip the sexual imagery.
In one of the Alvin books, we get some graphic imagery when the slaveholder rapes his slaves. Could it have been told as well without the imagery? Definitely.
I agree with what has been said about Enchantment. I didn't mean to say that all of his books have sexual imagery. Just some of them.
I withdraw my comments on the rating system. I agree that rating books would be difficult. It would be nice, however, if there was some kind of comment, such as, "this book contains sexual imagery that may be unsuitable for kids."
I guess my disappointment is my own fault. I assumed when I read the work of an LDS person, who from what I can tell, holds pretty true to Mormon standards in his discussions, essays, and lectures, that I wouldn't have to deal with explicit sexual imagery in my reading. I guess I shouldn't put him on such a pedestal. I'd just like to share all of Cards work with all my friends and family, but now feel that I must reserve my recommendations for just some of his books.
I know this will probably outrage many of you, maybe even OSC. What can I say? I'm the kind of person who doesn't go to R rated movies and I only go to PG13 movies after I've reviewed it online. So forgive my selectiveness. As someone said above, I've got a right to my own standards, even if the rest of you dont' agree with me.
Thanks for all the comments. I knew I was going to be opening myself up for some flamage when I put this out here. However, this is the first post I've ever put out here and I felt strongly enough about it to go to the effort of coming out here, getting registered, and putting this all down. Whether you agree with me or not does not change the reality of how I feel about it.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
(Edit: To go back to the original topic...)
Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, but what about First Meetings? They're shorter, and therefore a little more fast paced than the novels, and I can't think of anything controversial in them.
Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
You have every right not to read books you don't like (though the comments about not "letting" your wife read them is...weird), but I think what people are responding to are your questions about why OSC put the sex scenes in the books in the first place. Most of us feel they are necessary for the stories and characters.
quote: Enchantment doesn't have any sex scenes
You kidding? It has the BEST sex scene! Ever!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In one of the Alvin books, we get some graphic imagery when the slaveholder rapes his slaves. Could it have been told as well without the imagery? Definitely.
If someone tells you "That man raped his slave," you will think, "What an evil man," or "I want him to be punished," or "That son of a b*&^!"
If someone describes the master raping the slave, and justifying it to himself in his own eyes, you will feel those things.
Are such scenes used too much? Definitely. Are they used for reasons other than advancing a story and enhancing the emotional impact? Absolutely.
But not by OSC, in my opinion. And especially not in the Alvin books. Cavil Planter is evil. He is a willing tool for the unmaker because those desires exist in his own heart and he seeks a way to indulge them. Everything about Arthur Stuart depends, in some way, on what Cavil did, and what Arthur Stuart's mother did in response.
Posted by Silifi (Member # 7901) on :
The shadow series, despite being all about war, is has the least violence/sexual content. The Virlomi and Alai scene is about the only thing that was really sexual in those.
Speaker series is different. More sex, more violent imagery.
Most ten year olds would probably like the shadow series a lot better.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: I assumed when I read the work of an LDS person, who from what I can tell, holds pretty true to Mormon standards in his discussions, essays, and lectures, that I wouldn't have to deal with explicit sexual imagery in my reading.
Different strokes, I guess. I think it's great that you're sticking to your guns. While I don't agree with your assesment, I support you 100% in being a choosy reader.
quote: I knew I was going to be opening myself up for some flamage when I put this out here.
You kidding? No one's even lit a match. Honestly, this has been a pretty civil discussion for the internet.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I assumed when I read the work of an LDS person, who from what I can tell, holds pretty true to Mormon standards in his discussions, essays, and lectures, that I wouldn't have to deal with explicit sexual imagery in my reading. I guess I shouldn't put him on such a pedestal.
Ah. So what you're really saying is "in order to be a good Mormon, you cannot use sexual imagery. And I thought OSC was a good Mormon until I read his books."
Right?
If so, consider yourself slapped. Posted by mraymus (Member # 8134) on :
I guess I'm leaving this conversation now as it seems to be getting personal. If Tom Davidson's comments aren't flamage, then I'm a good catholic boy.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Tom, don't hit the n00bs.
I can't speak for how good a Mormon OSC is, and it's not even a question that can be answered by anyone here. When I've met him and spoken with him, I've been impressed with his generous spirit, and that's enough for me.
The question that I think IS debateable is whether or not he writes fiction that promotes Good; we (as Mormons) want to understand if he writes fiction that promotes Good as understood by our religion.
I believe he does. I'm willing to bear through the explicit sex for the same reason that I'm willing to slog through the violence and horror depicted in Moroni chapter 9; because I know that the detail will enhance the principle.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: If Tom Davidson's comments aren't flamage, then I'm a good catholic boy.
Oh, I'm flaming you. No mistake. I'm pointing out that you appear to believe that including sexual situations in novels is not consistent with being a good Mormon who "holds pretty true to Mormon standards in his discussions, essays, and lectures."
In this, you are little different from those people who, reading Ender's Game, conclude that he's a liberal humanist and find it impossible, when they later learn the truth, to understand how someone can be both a good person and oppose homosexual marriage.
The simple truth is that OSC is a devout Mormon who does not agree with your position on the use of sex or vulgarity in his novels. So far, this is not a reality that you have acknowledged; at best, you have indicated that you are disappointed in him and will be careful not to expect so much out of your idols in the future.
So, yeah, I'm flaming you. But let's be clear on this: it started out personal, unless you don't consider Scott to be a human being.
--------
quote: We (as Mormons) want to understand if he writes fiction that promotes Good as understood by our religion.
How do you distinguish between promoting Good and being worth reading? Do you even make the distinction?
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: If someone tells you "That man raped his slave," you will think, "What an evil man," or "I want him to be punished," or "That son of a b*&^!"
If someone describes the master raping the slave, and justifying it to himself in his own eyes, you will feel those things.
Are such scenes used too much? Definitely. Are they used for reasons other than advancing a story and enhancing the emotional impact? Absolutely.
But not by OSC, in my opinion. And especially not in the Alvin books. Cavil Planter is evil. He is a willing tool for the unmaker because those desires exist in his own heart and he seeks a way to indulge them. Everything about Arthur Stuart depends, in some way, on what Cavil did, and what Arthur Stuart's mother did in response.
Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Though it was done by Dag much more eloquently I'm sure.
--------- Edit: Boy, do I sound like I'm stealing Dag's thunder. I did not mean to. It just happened when i was trying to justify myself, I guess.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
A lot depends on the tone and perspective, but I don't think violence in books is necessarily equivalent to violence in movies, and so I'm not sure a strict event-to-event MPAA rating is necessarily appropriate. The death of a character whose backstory encompasses ten pages is very different from shooting down "mook number seven". The former is more emotionally effecting, and the latter more immediate and visceral. I suppose a lot comes down to a parent's reason for concern: are you worried about the child emulating the behavior? About them becoming more aggressive? About them becoming desensitivized to violence? Or simply about them having nightmares?
A lot depends on the child. Personally, I started reading adult sci-fi (Asimov, Robert Asprin, Piers Anthony, Card, etc.) at the ripe old age of eight.
I think a child of ten is probably ready to tackle a lot of issues. Probably more than a protective parent might think. I agree that the parent should be ready to discuss those issues with their child and help them through them. I generally think the original Ender series has nothing a smart ten-year old would be unable to handle, though they may get a little impatient around _Xenocide_.
There's very little in the books that encourages violence, and a great deal that discourages it. A child might be disturbed by some scenes (the eviscerations in _Speaker_, the way the Giant is killed in _Game_) but they wouldn't want to emulate it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:How do you distinguish between promoting Good and being worth reading? Do you even make the distinction?
I dunno, Tom. How I define things is inherent and instinctual.
I think 'Their Eyes Were Watching God' is a valuable book, but I don't know that it necessarily promotes Good.
I think 'Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites' is a terrible series, and wish I hadn't wasted time on it, despite it's promotion of Good.
Caleb Carr's 'The Alienist' was reprehensible and poorly written. It is, IMO, irredeemable.
So there you go.
To address some concerns about depiction of evil in fiction, here is Uncle Orson's essay on the subject, which I agree with:
quote: As a writer given to splitting infinitives, I now stoop to splitting absolutes. There are three types of evil in relation to fiction:
Evil depicted in fiction.
Evil advocated by fiction.
Evil enacted by fiction.
Read the whole thing. It's worth it.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Mr. Card never takes his sexual scenes too far. Every time he puts in a scene it gives the reader greater insight into what drives the character and who they are. He never has characters have sex just for the sake of having sex. Also his sex scenes are relitevily mild I've read much, much more explicit scenes by other authors and I'm not talking about dirty novels or romance novels or things geered that way either. I'm talking about books that you would have no idea they were that way when looking at them on the shelf. Sex is a part of life and showing it as a way to develop a character or plotline in a tastefull way I think should be exceptable.
Of that topic I think EG should be PG-13 due to the violence and things like (Very mild spoiler) . . .where Rose the Nose is sitting naked with his desk on his lap showing oversized genitalia and things of that nature. Its not very discriptive but still think it pushes it to PG-13
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: I assumed when I read the work of an LDS person, who from what I can tell, holds pretty true to Mormon standards in his discussions, essays, and lectures, that I wouldn't have to deal with explicit sexual imagery in my reading.
My response to this is basically that you have no idea what explicit sexual imagery is. This is sweetly naiieve like many LDS I know. But the ignorance is somewhat deliberate, so it doesn't make me as sympathetic as I could be otherwise.
As far as I know, OSC never writes about heaving bosoms or fishnet stockings. And if you are upset with OSC's writing, by all means make sure your child never ever reads the Bible. Particularly Leviticus through Judges. Though Hosea's an interesting book too.
Actually I'll extend that out through 1 and 2 Chronicles... since I had recurring nightmares at the age of 3 after my Dad read me the story (in King James) of David and Goliath and then the actual description of the Sons of Gath from a different passage.
AJ
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
When I was an adolescent, I made a diligent study of the Song of Solomon.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Grin... I so wanted to learn Hebrew so that I could get past all the King James euphemisms. I think there were reason(s) why my parents only allowed a KJV translation.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, I've got to say, the SoS pretty much ruined the way I look at goats today.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I still don't get the "Thy breasts are as two young roes" line from SoS. I mean I know they are deer and it was supposed to be some sort of compliment, but all I can see is this woman with two deer heads sticking out in the appropriate place on the anatomy... Just didn't work for me.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
hmm guess we've got to rule out Proverbs too...
quote: Proverbs 5:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
Song of Solomon 4:5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
Song of Solomon 7:3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.
Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
Carmina Burana introduced me to goats as symbols of sexuality. Who came up with that? And had they ever actually seen a goat?
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
Song of Songs 8:10
"I am a wall and my breasts are like towers", according to the Gemarra: "I am a wall" - that is the Council of Israel, and "my breasts are like towers" - those are the "sages".
*Shakes head in disbelief.*
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
I feel good about knowing Hebrew - and I'm studying all sorts of scholary stuff.
Of course, since Hebrew is all about roots, you can look at "בנאות דשא ירביצני" (Psalms 23:2) as one of the following:
1) He will lay me down in pastures (of grass); 2) He will tranquilise me in pastures (of grass); 3) He will beat me up on pastures (of grass); 4) He will beat me up with pastures of grass.
I will now translate Psalms 23 in two completely different ways:
1:
A song to David: the Lord is my shepherd; [thus] I shall not want. He lays me down in tranquil pastures: he leads me beside still waters. He restors my soul; he leades me in the paths of righteousness and justice in His name's sake. Shall I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for You are with me; your rod and your staff they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my foes: You enriched my head with holy oil; my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of God for ever.
2:
David's sing-sonnet, God's my sheperd whom I shall not miss. With pastures of grass He will beat me up; on waters of silence He will manage me. My soul He will chip, He'll show me through circles of justice for His name. Even if I walked in valleys of certain death I won't fear evil for you're with me; your tribe and support will give me condolence. You'd set before me a table vs. Evil; You fertilised my head with oil, my cup is full. But good and generousity will persecute me all the days of my life, and I returned at the house of God for long days.
[ June 01, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Haloed Silhouette ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Hebrew is fun. And speaking the language has proved very useful to me over the years!
AJ, want me to teach you? Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
Wait till I get to Job!
"Will get lost, the day I was born on, and the night said - 'be pregnant, man'! That day shall be dark; do not demand it, God of above, and may it shall not have riverness appear upon it" (Job 3:3-4).
I love mistranslating the Bible! And you haven't seen me with the Aramaic sections yet!
Posted by Dink (Member # 1185) on :
The King James Bible Supports Slavery and male domination
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thank you for sharing.
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
Now I'll have to learn Hebrew. Anybody know of guides online that will help? or is this one of those really complicated languages?
Posted by Feiwaltan (Member # 7912) on :
in all honesty you cant really be that judgmenal about an author because of what he or she wrote. i know this from experienc that somethines you avhe to write things you may not particulary be found of. there are thigns you write because they make sense and they are an important part of making a story belivable, isnt that the only reason you read the books and wanted to reccomend the author to your feriends and family? this not to be mean and has already been mentioned earlier, but why would you not let your wife read a book because of it containing a sex scene, as you out it? is she not aware of such a concept? is she ignorent to the fact that she had to have sex to have kids? to adress the original topic these book are a greate read and i recomend them to anyone who wants to read them, if you read something, no matter the age, if it interests you ou will continue to do if you think its too sexualy discriptive or too violent based on what you have been tought, you will stop reading or just look beyond it. back to mraymus having frustrations about the books having sexual imagery, you cant say that you dont completely diagree with the concept becasue you would not have continued to read those books if you were as frustrated with them as you say you were. i am not flaming at you just strict observation.
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I think that more swear words were actually used in EG than ES, though.
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