Hi all. This is my first post here. I did a basic search and couldn't find this topis repeated in other threads but I may have missed it somewhere. Firstly, let me say that I'm a scientist, primarily a biologist now, but with a physics, chemistry and mathematical background originally. Now for what left me perplexed about Shadow Puppets. It was the whole embryos and wanting Bean without Anton's Key turned business. The biggest plot flaw in my mind was all that hoo-ha about Petra wanting a child right there and then. I mean, even today the technolgy exists to freeze sperm. They could easily have got Bean to make a deposit and then just keep it until a convenient time to undergo IVF and implantation; seriously, the worst time to do this is when a psychopath is out to get you and your every move is likely being tracked. Also, were Bean and Nikolai just brothers, or were they identical siblings having arisen from one fertilized egg which was then separated into the 24(?) or so embryos after a few division cycles? If the latter, then Petra cold easily have been impregnated by Nikolai, who is essentially Bean without Anton's Key having been tampered with.
Posted by LightBreath (Member # 6528) on :
Bean and Nikolai are the same. Bean just has Anton's key turned. Petra wouldn't want Nikolai because she loves Bean. She knows Bean. She loves Bean. If you were married to someone with an identical twin, you would not want to get impregnated by the twin. You would want to be impregnated by your husband, the one you love. Whether it be by external fertilization or not, its just the idea of it being Bean's baby. But you are right, the determination of Petra to get it then and there was kinda dumb.
[ May 08, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: LightBreath ]
Posted by fitbrit (Member # 6529) on :
See that's exactly what puzzles me. These people are genii. Nikolai and Bean are genetically identical. To be totally pragmatic, Nikolai's baby IS Bean's unless you specifically want Anton's Key, which they were going out of their way to avoid. Sure, have sex with Bean, but use Nikolai's sperm to fertilize yourself with. For all intents and purposes it's the same thing. I understand the "but I'm in love with Bean", but Nikolai's progeny IS Bean's progeny too, unless we say that Lamarck was right and that experiences can be inherited (which is wrong). Bean should know this and I'd expect him to suggest it. As a thought exercise, it's a bit out there, but picture a set of identical twin brothers who have babies with identical twin sisters; the kids (cousins) are actually, genetically, siblings!
Posted by fitbrit (Member # 6529) on :
Hey LightBreath, I just noticed that you and I are consecutive members on this forum! Welcome. Posted by LightBreath (Member # 6528) on :
Ha! Lol! That is quite funny. Welcome to you too. Posted by LightBreath (Member # 6528) on :
You are right. Bean should have at least thought of it. But he would then think that Petra would not have it. She didn't just want Bean's genes in her babies; she wanted them to be Bean's babies too. It would not be the same to have it done by Nikolai.The babies would be genetically the same but not mentally the same. Plus, would Nikolai do it? He would always have in the back of his mind that those were his babies.
[ May 08, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: LightBreath ]
Posted by namaki (Member # 6519) on :
You know what puzzled me about Shadow Puppets? That Bean didn't speak Mandarin and didn't learn Arabic in the time he was with the Caliph. He inhales languages. He read military history in the original languages when he was 5 years old. He speaks Thai, English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch (etc.etc.etc.)... and then when they are watching the Caliph's opening speech at a restaurant in Damascus he understands... nothing. Amazing.
Petra puzzled me in the whole Shadow Puppets book.
edit: spelling.
[ May 09, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: namaki ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
There were a lot of problems I had with that book which is why I didn't finish it. For example, why did they go to that guy in the first place knowing that he'd take their embroys away? Perhaps I read it wrong though, but that part was utterly dippy... Not to memtion one more problem I had with the book....
Posted by LightBreath (Member # 6528) on :
This book disappointed me.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't think that Bean and his brother were genetically identical. They were just brothers.
Posted by LightBreath (Member # 6528) on :
I'm pretty sure it said in Ender's Shadow that they were.
Posted by fitbrit (Member # 6529) on :
I just read the threee Bean books back to back in a coupel of weeks. That's good because all of it is fresh in my mind, but bad because it was bean overload and hence difficult to digest- yes the bean overload/digestion thing is an intentional pun. I too seem to recall that Nikolai and Bean were identical. Namaki, there's a simple reason why Bean didn't learn Arabic at the Caliph's modest palace; he'd discovered sex by then!
Posted by T.J. (Member # 6267) on :
yes that is a good reason to stop learning languages
Posted by namaki (Member # 6519) on :
Nicolai and Bean were definitely identical
So sex blocks the neural pathways for language learning Must be why adults are so bad at learning languages... This would be an excellent subject for my Masters...
Posted by fitbrit (Member # 6529) on :
Who are your masters, and do they treat you well? Do you need Bean to rescue you? Just draw me a dragon if you mean yes.
Posted by Polio (Member # 6479) on :
"Petra puzzled me in the whole Shadow Puppets book."
Agreed. I loved her in Shadow of the Hegemon, and then she morphed into Little Miss Backboneless-Sap. A terrible, terrible disappointment. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I liked the book partly because I'm so loyal to OSC and partly because it was pretty darn good. The only problem I had with it was the relationship between Bean and Petra. It just didn't seem realistic and could have used a bit more development, in my own opinion. The two of them worrying about having babies just seemed weird. I don't know; maybe I just expected them to stay very young forever. Darn kids grow up too fast.
space opera
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I understand/agree with much of what others here say about their problems digesting the relationship between Bean and Petra and their sudden desire to have children.
Yet, having read so much of OSC's work, and realizing how important marriage/family is to him personally (and in his religion) I guess it never surprises me that this is a recurrent theme in many of his books (like the Alvin Maker series, etc.) I think it is just one of those personal values of the writer that bleeds over to the characters he writes about.
Farmgirl
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
quote:These people are genii. Nikolai and Bean are genetically identical. To be totally pragmatic, Nikolai's baby IS Bean's ...
Since when is it a requirement for geniuses to be heartlessly pragmatic?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
As a person who has gotten married and had kids during the time that I've been reading the Ender/Bean books, it seems very natural to me that Bean and Petra would get married and want to have kids.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Same here, mph. And while I can see the argument that Nikolai and Bean's genes are the same (but for the one major alteration) . . . the idea of therefore just taking a sample from Nicolai instead just is WRONG to me.
I have friends who are identical twins, and their kids can tell which one is their mom (I can, sometimes ). We are more than our genes! Nikolai's kids would NOT be Bean's!
Posted by Kabederlin (Member # 6304) on :
A .22! What's the world coming to! *Everyone stares at Kabe for spouting off random complaints*
Posted by fitbrit (Member # 6529) on :
A rat named dog I meant that Bean and Petra are supposedly very intelligent and Bean has ingested so much information that he should know very basic genetics. The comment about pragmatism isn't related to his genius per se, but rather to his character, which has been ruthlessly pragmatic since he was 4 years old. Twins are not identical because they have different experiences. They also live in different environments all their lives, because the two of them cannot occupy the same space at the same time. These influences make twins distinguishable. However,these differences are not inherent in their DNA and are not heritable. Save for somatic mutations, they are genetically identical. SO in Shadow Puppets we have: Nikolai and Bean are identical. Some maniac alters Bean so that they're not the same any more. Petra falls in love with Bean. She wants to have a baby that is Bean's but doesn't have the alteration. So they go back to the same maniac and try to have the alteration removed or at least eliminate the embryos which have it. Seems that she could have just gone to Nikolai and saved themselves a lot of grief. Love Bean. Have sex with Bean, but if you're serious about Bean without Anton's key, you're talking about Nikolai. If a DNA test were carried out to determine the paternity of either of Bean's or Nikolai's offspring they would not distinguish between them, unless the test specifically looked at Anton's Key.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Can anybody else confirm this? Just don't buy the idea that Bean and his brother are genetically identical. Did I just miss this part, or this an assumption being made?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Intro to chapter 15 of Ender's Shadow:
quote:"Genetically, they're identical twins. The only difference is Anton's Key."
--Pop
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Man, I'd think that I'd remember something like that. How could I forget that? Posted by Gnophos (Member # 6555) on :
Shadow Puppets left me scratching my head, too, but for different reasons.
The main one is simply... doesn't it kind of leave off without a resolution? I mean, I have no idea if there's another book coming, and if there is, then no worries. But I wouldn't think Card would end the Bean series this way.... For instance, Peter is left in a rather disadvantageous position. We know he will eventually rule the world, right? So how does he get from the end of Puppet Shadows to being World Ruler? I expected these books to tell me this (as well as telling Bean's story, of course.)
I also found it bizarre that we are never told (to my recollection) how tall Bean is at any stage in the book. That seems like an important piece of information to me.
Anyone have any answers for me?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
There is another book coming -- reportedly "Shadow of the Giant". No date set yet (probably not even written yet)
FG
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OSC is almost always sparse in his physical descriptions of characters.
Posted by Kabederlin (Member # 6304) on :
quote: So how does he get from the end of Puppet Shadows to being World Ruler?
How did you get Puppet Shadows?
Posted by Gnophos (Member # 6555) on :
Oops
That would be... Shadow Puppets. For some reason that title gives me a fit of dyslexia. But I got it right the first time!
OK, now that I know there's a sequel, I don't have an issue about the ending. I'm quite relieved, actually.
And yes, mph, I've noticed that Card basically never describes his characters (in the Ender/Bean series, at least, which is all I know).
I look forward to seeing the Ender's Game movie for that reason, just to see what Ender looks like. In lieu of an official description from the writer, that's the best I can hope for.
It occurred to me that OSC might be withholding such info intentionally -- it's said that the more vaguely a character is depicted, the more people can relate to him (can picture themselves *as* him). Maybe that's his reasoning.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OSC has said that's why he does it. Good guess!
Speaking of, are there any physical descriptions of Ender and Peter? In my mind, Ender is *definitely* blonde, while Peter has black hair. Did I make that up, or is that from the book?
Posted by Aeroth (Member # 6269) on :
I'm pretty sure that it was stated in the Shadow series and Ender and Peter look very much alike.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I've NEVER pictured Ender as a blonde.....
hm......
FG
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
They can look very much alike and have different hair colors.
Posted by Gnophos (Member # 6555) on :
I don't recall it giving Ender's hair color; I always pictured Peter and Ender as being black-haired, and Ender having a serious, sort of square-jawed look to him and a slow, steady way of speaking.
But that's just my mind's eye talking, not actual fact.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
Well, Peter definetely has dark hair.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Definately? You have a quote out of the book for that, Yogi?
FG
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
Yup, page 10 of the paperback version of EG.
"Ender did not see Peter as the beautiful ten-year-old boy that grown-ups saw, with dark, thick, tousled hair and a face that belonged to Alexander the Great."
[ May 21, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: St. Yogi ]
Posted by Kabederlin (Member # 6304) on :
In First Meetings all the illustrations have Ender as dark haired... Just FYI. I've always seen him as having more dominant genes.
[ May 21, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Kabederlin ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ender is not blonde. That. Is. So. Weird. My world just got turned upside-down.
Posted by JO14921 (Member # 6562) on :
I am not entirely sure why, but in my mind, Ender and Nafai (from the Homecoming series) have the same appearance more or less. I don't know, maybe it's just the young, smart, brave, altruism in them both that makes me keep connecting them. Does anyone else think that their mental image of Ender matches Nafai's?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I don't know if I could ever see them the same. Ender we basically know as a prepubescent, then leaping to adulthood. Nafai begins at 14, and never really seems to get past 30. I mean, I know he does, but I always picture him as late 20s in the later books. With the two characters never overlapping in age, it's difficult to picture them as being the same. Plus Nafai is tall and lanky, whereas Ender always seemed compact to me.
No, although I never really had a picture of Ender in my mind, I know that everything I did think about him made him very different in appearance from Nafai.
--Pop
Posted by EurasianGirl (Member # 6524) on :
I could have sworn that as a young man, Peter was described as having blonde hair, and a leader-like quality, with handsome facial features.
But I may very well be wrong, since its been a while since I've read a lot of the books, and I don't have them on hand to reference to.. so I'm not exactly sure if I'm just pulling this out of the air or what.
I always pictured Ender as somewhat of a light brown headed boy; perhaps because I saw him as the balance of Valentine and Peter and imagined it as a genetic trait difference as well? For some reason, I've always pictured Valentine as blonde and Peter (up till the book where I apparently got confused) as a deep brunette (like Kabederlin said with the dominant genes).
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
just because Bean and Petra know that he has a genetically identical twin does not mean they would want to do it that way. There are more to having a baby than genetics...there is emotion invovled too. Sure they could use the sperm of Bean's twin brother and it would be genetically identical...but it would not be Bean's sperm. Sure it would be genetically identical, but it would not have the same emotional impact.
Have you ever received a gift from someone that means something to you because it came from that person? If the item was broken, sure it could be relplaced with an identical item...but it would not be the same because it did not come from that person.
Posted by Pausanias (Member # 6586) on :
Petra wants to have Bean's children because she loves him. She wants to have his children *right now* because they will at least get to see their father before he dies prematurely. OSC made it quite clear that in spite of their intelligence they were very much at the mercy of their hormones.
Posted by Diane S. (Member # 6612) on :
Pausanius is so right... Bean and Petra wish to be a family for whatever amoun of time they can.... if she just wanted to raise good little generals, then she could choose from anyone's frozen donation, not just Nikolai's.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
I always thought that Peter was supposed to look kind of Greek, though I'm not sure how I got that since all we know is that is father is Polish and is mother is American. I think it might have been because of the dark hair comment. The cover of the version of EG that I have shows a boy with orange/light brown hair, and while I've never thought it looked much like my version of Ender, I do see him with a light brown hair color.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
If you're going from the perspective of Anton, the only problem with Nikoli being the father is that Bean wouldn't be alive to raise the children. The point of view taken in the book is that it doesn't matter how you get children, what makes them yours is that you weave them in the web of life.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:There were a lot of problems I had with that book which is why I didn't finish it.
I didn't finish it. I tried, I really did.
I devoured the other books. Didn't breathe until I finished them.
This one, I opened, I read a little, put it down, came back, put it down and finally returned it to the library without any guilt.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:She wants to have his children *right now* because they will at least get to see their father before he dies prematurely.
That strikes me as horribly, horribly cruel. But I haven't read Shadow Puppets.
Posted by chrysophylax (Member # 6630) on :
quote:These people are genii. Nikolai and Bean are genetically identical. To be totally pragmatic, Nikolai's baby IS Bean's unless you specifically want Anton's Key, which they were going out of their way to avoid. Sure, have sex with Bean, but use Nikolai's sperm to fertilize yourself with. For all intents and purposes it's the same thing. I understand the "but I'm in love with Bean", but Nikolai's progeny IS Bean's progeny too, unless we say that Lamarck was right and that experiences can be inherited (which is wrong). Bean should know this and I'd expect him to suggest it.
An interesting point, fitbrit. for all intents and purposes you might be correct. But consider the context here. OSC is christian, with strong moral values he depicts throughout all of his books. the characters in them, regardless of your own view, take religion as a major framework for their beliefs. My bottom line, anyway, is, regardless of whether nikolai is or isnt genetically identical to bean, if petra was inseminated with his genetic material, The material, technically speaking, comes from nikolai, not bean. therefore, it is not beans child, but nikolai's.
*shrug*. i understand this concept probably because i buy into it. also, whose to say what small genetic mutations bean or nikolai might have? its very rare for twins to be truly identical. i would almost say impossible.
Posted by Melchior (Member # 5519) on :
Even though Bean and Nicolai are genetically identical (excluding Anton's Key) they are not the same person, because they are individuals, with their own soul, and are very much different because of the enviroment that they were brought up in (or lack there of), and the experiences they were both exposed to, forming there personality and their individuality; in which case I personally don't think it even matters that their DNA is (nearly) identical, because Bean is who he is, and Nicolai is who he is.
(Did that make any sense?) Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Quote: "I also found it bizarre that we are never told (to my recollection) how tall Bean is at any stage in the book. That seems like an important piece of information to me.
Anyone have any answers for me?"
There are several paces where we are given descriptions of Bean's height relative to other people or objects, the one I remember most being when they are with the Caliph. Bean is described as having, at his arrival there, to reach up to get clothes hangers, but by the end of his stay there having to reach down (slightly). We're never told he is 8'6" or anything though.
Posted by ballantrae (Member # 6731) on :
To answer Fitbrit (Edit from frigit - sorry man I always confuse names) post, namely: For why she doesn't want to freeze the sperm and have the children after he dies.
The above sentence answers itself, provided of course, you are not a mathematical equation.
Next on the agenda: Shadow Puppets suckage level.
Well, to answer this, you have to read the book more than once. He's trying (I think) to get some of his ideas out onto the page. About relationships between individuals and, about the meaning of life (well, at least Anton is).
He's also theorizing about how a successful attack on a huge land mass such as China would work. I think he's wrong on that one. For one thing, no one takes kindly to foreigners. The only reason the Iraqi army gave in was because they hated their dictator far more than we can imagine. The Chinese would fight recklessly to stop an invasion, and this includes the average mother who is pregnant. Such a war would be bloodier than anything the world has seen. They would need logistical support far beyond what they had in the story.
But, I'm not a military guy, so to be honest, he could be totally right and I could be full of hot air (I probably am at that)
He's also trying to deal with how he wishes groups of people would be, namely, an idealistic vision of the Arab culture being true to itself and achieving a new age of greatness.
This makes sense. Mass changes in a population have to come from within. Nowadays I think we have a feeling that is the case. But Eric Hoffer makes it very clear.
(warning - long off topic coming up!!!)
I just read a book by Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer - thoughts on the nature of mass movements". It's pretty good, although he doesn't realize that he's got the Jewish sources wrong. The commentaries explicity state that the Pharoah went out of his way to crush the people precisely to keep them from rebelling.
In other words, Hoffer understood what happened, only he got it backwards as to what happened with us Jews. On the other hand, after reading Hoffers book, I understood far better the nature of the miracle. It's one thing to split the sea, it's quite another to achieve something that is literally against human nature. Which is probably why Hoffer believed that the Jews were actually treated better - he couldn't get his mind around the concept that G-d exists and runs the show.
Whew.
Anyway, just read it a few times. There's one othe r important development in the book, and that is how Peter begins to grow up and become a man in reality. There are actually a lot of very insightful points in this book come to think of it.
-ron
[ July 29, 2004, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: ballantrae ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:Did that make any sense?
No.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think the problem here with Nikolai vs. Bean is the Key. Everyone keeps saying that Bean and Nikolai are genetically identical, the only difference being the turned key. I say that Bean and Nikolai WERE identical until the key was turned. Nikolai would not yield the same children that Bean would because they wouldn't have the GENETIC ALTERATION that made Bean a super-genius.
Meaning, Bean and Nikolai came from the same twinned embryo, so they started with the same DNA, but Bean's genes were altered later, making him genetically different from Nikolai.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
But, as discussed many times, Bean and Petra were planning to genetically engineer their children to remove the Key...
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
No they weren't. They were planning to discard the ones that had the key, because what's-his-face told them he had a test to tell which ones had it.
(I missed where that was said though. I'm sorry.)
EDIT: OOOH! Now I see the complications. Okay nevermind. Der.
[ August 04, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Trick (Member # 6790) on :
well there is a big difference between identical twins or clones; the later being an exact replica of bean.
and the reason petra wanted to have the baby right then is so bean would still be alive when they had their first child.
Posted by BeansAchilles (Member # 6813) on :
I started reading this part of the forum because the topic interested me... I have a near-photographic memory but I dont like reading pointless relentless questions about the same old thing over and over... thats why I skipped from the 4th question about Enders and Peters hair to the part where I could send a reply... I'm guessing that the only reason that you thought they were brown haired or blonde haired was because you yourself were brown haired or blonde haired... but for the record I know basically the answer to every question I have seen so far so if there is any questions that have been left unanswered... just ask the question in this section of the furom... since ive only been involved in 2 posts and today was my first day I can help anyone with any questions about Bean or Ender... except in the last 100 pages of "Children of the Mind" and "Shadow Puppets"... unless you ask them tomorow when I have finished reading them. By the way JUST ASK ME THE QUESTIONS BY E-MAIL @ Bloodz2mydeath@yahoo.com. My personal one that I just committed to the forum. Thanks Posted by dinzy (Member # 6858) on :
Nikolai and Bean are genetically equivalent to identical twins, but not necessarily genetically identical.
Identical twins are beleived to be formed when the fertilized egg first begins to divide and replicate. It may be an error in the replication process that causes two cells to develop into two genetically identical individuals or it may be a a genetic duplication error which causes the second cell to be very slightly different from the original and discarded and allowed to become its own individual. If the second mechanism is what happens then the second twin is not exaactly genetically identical to the first.
Anyway the argument is pretty moot because Petra clearly wanted Bean's children and wanted for him to be around long enough to be their father.
He may not die so quickly anyhow.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Is there another shadow book due out soon?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:Question Are you coming out with any more Ender books?
OSC Answers There are no sequels planned to Children of the Mind, the last of the novels about Ender Wiggin. However, the Shadow series, set in the same future as Ender's Game but following Bean and other characters from Ender's Game, will continue until we have four books, "Ender's Shadow," "Shadow of the Hegemon," "Shadow Puppets," and "The Shadow of the Giant."
However - I haven't heard a definate date. Amazon lists the to-be-published date as March 1, 2005. Someone posted the cover art here recently.
Farmgirl
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Thanks!
I made a mistake last night of thinking I hadn't read Shadow Puppets yet, so I bought it..
I've read a lot of it and everything is familiar... I was thinking that I had just read the first 5 online or something, but that's not the case. I've read the whole book! I just don't REMEMBER things until I read them (mostly).
Oh well... I needed to own it anyway.
-Katarain
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Personally, it's my favorite so far. But then, I've gotten married and had a baby in the last year and a half, so I guess that's because I identify with the characters even more than I did in the other books. I don't really see these flaws in the plot (at least not as flaws); I just identify with the longing for children and a family at any cost.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Having thought about this all evening (and re-read Shadow Puppets in the last day) I realized that this is the type of protagonist I have always identified with, not just recently. Petra exhibits a longing for children of the man she loves that I have always had, even before I knew who that man would be. (I always fantasized about getting married and having a large family as a child.) Question to those who didn't like the book: how do you feel about Anton's statements about the meaning of life and relationships? I think that's the center of this issue for me.
Posted by Drake Coluber (Member # 6896) on :
Personally, I loved Shadow Puppets, just as I've loved all the Bean books. Though I was beginning to despair, as it has been 2 years since it's publishing with no word of a sequel, so I appreciate whoever posted that!
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Must be why adults are so bad at learning languages... This would be an excellent subject for my Masters...
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). We are more than our genes! Nikolai's kids would NOT be Bean's!
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