I thought the way Card tied all the threads together from the earlier books was done extremely well. I expecially liked how The Crystal City was brought into reality. I always imagined it as a majestic, unrealistic building, but I liked how it was a down-to-earth building that has special powers.
I still hold onto the belief that Calvin will do something Good in last book.
Lastly, the cover. Yuck. But what can you do? Card has no control over that aspect of the book.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I agree about the Calvin thing. I also likes the way Card has set it up so you can see the seeds of destruction being sowed into the city, and yet also shown how Alvin and his followers have matured into something that can outlast the destruction of the city.
Hobbes Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I enjoyed the book. OK now for the
SPOILERS
The relationship between Alvin and Peggy still frustrates me a little bit but I'm glad that the baby survives and this seems to build a bit of a bridge across the gorge seperating these two. Hopefully it will grow over time. There is too much distrust and self hatred (hatred may be too strong of a word) between them, but given the unique abilities they each posses this makes some sense.
I still want to punch Calvin in the head. I was really hoping to see more change from him after his seeming change of heart after Alvin saved his life but he's the same arogant, selfish kid. Although it seems he may be ready to give making another real shot. Of course it's for all the wrong reasons.
My favorite part of the book was the growth of Author Stuart. I was starting to worry about him in the last book. He seems to hold a lot of anger at being too young or not always in the know. But at the end of the book it was great to see him realize what Alvin had been trying to teach him all along. He sees the sense of what he's been learning and he's learned a LOT. I wonder what peggy ment when she said that Arthur will out last Alvin. Does he take over Alvin's work when Alvin dies, because lets face it all of OSC main characters die eventually.
But all in all I'm gald to see Alvin finally on the path to creating his city. He has a lot more direction and focus.
a quick question: Look at the physical map on the jacket cover. isn't the crystal city on the wrong side of the mizzipy? Or did I miss something when I was reading?
Thank you CalvinMaker - I apparently am blind, i looked al the way back to the 9th and didn't see this one! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I wonder what peggy ment when she said that Arthur will out last Alvin. Does he take over Alvin's work when Alvin dies..."
The story of Alvin is a highly idealized allegory about Joseph Smith. Arthur Stuart, therefore, is meant to be Brigham Young. This should answer your questions. Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
Was BY a half black son of a slave?
msquared
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
quote: The story of Alvin is a highly idealized allegory about Joseph Smith. Arthur Stuart, therefore, is meant to be Brigham Young. This should answer your questions
Unfortunately I know VERY LITTLE about Morman history. I grew up Catholic and Mormans were just a group of people living in Utah and that was about the extent of my knowledge of their history. So unfortunately I guess that doesn't really answer my question but it leads me to the right research to help. Thanks.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hobbes do you think the city will eventually be destroyed? I thought the point was more that even though there were still problems and rough edges they were still building something that would outlast the people that were there, and hopeufully over the long term have the community become more and more in harmony with each other.
AJ
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
You are warned that all of my posts in this thread may have spoilers. Thank-you
Well I do, though a lot of that is because the orginal town that Joseph Smith set up was destroyed.
Hobbes Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't see Arthur as being analogous to Brigham Young. At least not yet. But maybe I'll be proven wrong.
This new city on the bank of the Mississippi does, however, seem to be a lot like Nauvoo.
Measure, especially after the talk alluding to him dying alongside with Alvin, looks an awful lot like Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's older brother who was in fact murdured alongside Joseph.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
so there is talk of Measure dying with Alvin? I was justing wondering that after the earlier comments about Calvin etc. I suppose Verily will be there but escape to tell the tale.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I really can't see Arthur as Brigham Young. The reason is partly that from what I know of church history, Brigham and Joseph never hung out much.
At first I thought Arthur Stewart was Oliver Cowdery, since Arthur was around after Alvin made the gold plow, just as Cowdery was around during the time of the translation from the gold plates. However, there was no subsequent spat between them that would parralel the Cowdrey problems.
My diagnosis? I don't think this series parrallels Joseph Smith's life as closely as everybody thinks it does.
In fact, when I read an amazon reviewer say in a review of a past book (Alvin Journeyman, I think) that everybody had just become puppets acting out the Joseph Smith story, my jaw just about dropped.
If anything, Arthur is an amalgam of the entire quorum of the twelve, maybe. They did all accompany Joseph on Zion's march, which Alvin's wanderings and this jaunt from Nueva Barcelona is roughly equivalent to. Does anybody feel the relationships between characters and real people is more 1:1 than I make it here?
(Although the Measure as Hyrum connection is probably accurate. I'll give you that one.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That criticism WAS pretty valid for Journeyman, if you ask me; I made it myself. The ONLY reason for boring courtroom drama was to create a parallel, and the story really suffered.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Aurther Stuart is going to have a lot of wives then?
Rock on, Aurther. Rock on.
Posted by greensong Rose (Member # 5590) on :
SPOILERS
I really liked Arthur Stuart. Such a smart mouth, I loved it. And I'm so happy he let the baby live-baby Vigor. The whole ending was delightfully sastisfying.(I felt so special reading about Papa Moose. I was like "Hey! I've talked to that guy!)
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Nathan at the portland signing:
::randomly opens to a page:: ::sees name Papa Moose:: ::reads what Papa Moose says::
"Oh no, they are strictly forbidden to do such a thing."
::chuckles silently to self::
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
*finally finished Crystal City five minutes ago*
SPOILERS...SPOILERS...SPOILERS
I reread the series before reading Crystal City so I'd have a clue...it had been a *really* long time since I last read them. I remember a little about Joseph Smith's life from my childhood, but not enough to distract from the story. It was obvious that it was an idealized, fictional recount, but the stories stood fairly well on their own merit. I felt like the story at least carried itself.
And I did fine with Crystal City until the end. (It was wonderful to see Papa Moose and Mama Squirrel play such a large role in the book!) I liked how Arthur Stuart was developed, and Dead Mary and the escape from Barcy. That was all interesting and kept me going. I enjoyed the book up to the very last chapter, when La Tia decided to call the darn thing a tabernacle. My first thought was Uh oh. And the worst blow was Alvin telling Jim Bowie that he wouldn't be welcome there. When the Crystal City was described, the thing I liked best about it was that no one would be excluded. I guess that in my map of reality, even bad people have a chance to change, and that chance isn't likely to come if you exclude them from the good people. I understood the story's reason -- that the visions in the crystal would help a bad person become even worse, but it was exactly the exclusion I had so hoped not to see. Despite all of Calvin's badness throughout the series, Alvin still loves him, and never hesitates to show that love. Yet instead of excluding Calvin, he excludes Jim Bowie, who he never liked anyway. Maybe the story would have been more truthful for me if he'd told *Calvin* he wouldn't be welcome. Maybe it would have been more truthful to me if Alvin had had to struggle through that dilemna.
Or maybe it all just resonated too much with the worst of my experiences with the Mormon church. In that last chapter, for me the series went from being a story of wonder for our hidden gifts as humans and a fun alternate history to a far too transparent "fairy tale" of the Mormon church. I was jolted out of the story.
I really wanted to like this book, but if I hadn't bought it, I wouldn't buy it now, nor can recommend it to anyone who isn't Mormon. I'm sorry and I'm tempted not to post this, out of respect for our hosts. But since I do respect our host, I hate not to give my impression. If it were my work, I think (not like I'd know, since I only write little stuff) I'd want someone to tell me if they were jolted out of the story, and why.
Here's to hoping Rebekah is better. That's next on my reading pile.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
jeniwren, thank you for posting that.
Sounds like you had a very similar reaction to mine. I thought my discomfort came from being an "outsider" with just enough background information to see the parallels. So I kinda feel validated. Posted by pwiscombe (Member # 181) on :
My guesses to some of the parallels with the life of Joseph Smith:
Alvin Smith - Joseph Smith Peggy - Emma Smith Measure - Hyrum Smith Arthur Stewart - Brigham Young Verily Cooper - Oliver Cowdery Mike Fink - Porter Rockwell
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
I really think I should read the Book of Mormon to understand some of this. Anyone know where i might obtain a copy?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Anyone know where i might obtain a copy?"
*grin* The next time you see two clean-shaven young men in white shirts and black ties, looking somewhat lost in the middle of a large city, ask them. They can help. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
You could listen to Tom, but that would just be silly, instead, go to mormon.org You can order a copy there free of charge/obligation.
Tom:
Hobbes Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
quote: *grin* The next time you see two clean-shaven young men in white shirts and black ties, looking somewhat lost in the middle of a large city, ask them. They can help.
Yeah, tried that. Turned out they were mafia. Now both my legs are broken and I'm trying to reach a pay phone to call 911. First, though, I figure I'll have to find a way to swim with concrete all over my new shoes.
Thanks Hobbes.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Fo sho.
Hmm, I seem to be quoting Lalo an awful lot lately, I'm a bit scared.
Hobbes Posted by Poseidon (Member # 5862) on :
Taleswapper-- William Blake?
Posted by Poseidon (Member # 5862) on :
quote: Mike Fink - Porter Rockwell
Mike Fink is Mike Fink. i've heard of him. real person.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Papa Moose -- ?
Posted by Poseidon (Member # 5862) on :
you
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Hobbes Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Poor Pop. He's having an identity crisis and people are laughing at him.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Yeah, tried that. Turned out they were mafia. Now both my legs are broken and I'm trying to reach a pay phone to call 911."
You got off easy. You could have gotten on a Mormon mailing list. Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
It was Mormon mafia, apparentley. I got home and my mailbox was full of pamphlets.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Finally finished it! I can relate a little to what Jen and Rivka related, except my view is that those religious elements (tabernacle and the exclusion of Bowie) were out of place because Alvin is still (like Ender was) essentially an agnostic. It seems to me Jim Bowie and Calvin wouldn't have liked what the Crystal showed them and so had an aversion to the building. Of course being contrary types, they will probably want to go there just to bother folks.
Was it meant to be ironic that he thanked God after the slow time healing because it was the women who decided to help him?
I think I've said before that the series is too different in its approach to organized religion to maintain parallels to the work of Joseph Smith. Though I guess his inclusive interpretation of what it means to be a maker could be the basis of a new heritage that goes beyond the destruction of the city.
But is it also the end of the folk magic?
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
Isn't Alvin immortal now?
He got two bites of the white fruit. Even if one was in a dream, I think, considering the nature of eight-face mound and dreams cocerning it, does that really matter?
On that topic: I beleive that fruit comes up in the Homecoming series, Children of the Mind, and of course, Alvin Maker. Is it in any of OSC's other books?
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
For me, I felt it was more like:
Alvin and Peggy - Joseph and Emma Measure - Hyrum Arthur Stuart - Oliver Cowdery Verily Cooper - John Taylor / Brigham Young Mike Fink - Porter Rockwell (Mike Fink, although he was a real person (and visual effects supervisor for X2), is probably used to represent Porter, one of Joseph Smith's friends and bodyguards)
But the more the series goes on, the more I doubt those.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Maybe I should clarify.
The more I doubt those connections directly.
Peggy's got some Eliza Snow in her, and Arthur seems like an amalgam of the twelve, in the journeys he makes will Alvin, even though Verily seems more like much of the twelve at times.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think the parallels are pretty useless. There were hints that Verily could turn on him. Abe Lincoln, being a Republican, was an enemy to the real early Saints (Republicans were created to combat the twin relics of barbarism, slavery and polygamy)
However, Joseph Smith did have a black former slave who was among his associates and held the priesthood. He is depicted on the monument of Brigham Young's arrival in the Salt Lake Valley. At least, this is a story I heard in church once. There is a film showing him giving a slave his (Joseph's) horse to sell to buy freedom in the film- I think it is the Carthage Jail film.
Carthage is where Joseph Smith was killed, despite being in command of a sizeable militia. He also had crossed the Mississipi the night before his imprisonment but his wife sent him a letter implying he was a coward, so he came back. He did have an inkling of what would happen, which is how a "prophet" walks into his own doom.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: Isn't Alvin immortal now?
He got two bites of the white fruit.
I'm not sure what the white fruit means, but in the Book of Mormon it was the love of God and not necessarily immortality.
The death of Alvin and the destruction of the city are pretty strongly forshadowed. In fact I'll be mad it if doesn't happen
Though every time Alvin "makes" something, Peggy's view of his future changes.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
Yeah, but in Red Prophet it said two bites give immortality. So by the rules of that book series. . .
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't have my own copy, would you mind giving a quote? If it's in the rules of the series, I would tend to think a dream bite does not count. All Peggy's worrying about his death must be incredibly frustrating to you if you think he can't be killed.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
quote: Taleswapper was standing there and he said, "Eat". Alvin reached up and plucked a single fruit out of the tree. . .
"That's right," said Taleswapper. "With the first bite, you know."
"What about the second bite?"
"With the second bite, you live forever," said Taleswapper. . .
Red Prophet, paperback edition pg.220
I think events on eight-face mound are so close to dreams and dreams about eight-face mound are so close to reality, there isn't really much of a difference. . .
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I liked the book a lot -- liked it much more than the 4th and 5th books -- it flowed a lot better than the other books.
I wish there'd been a bit more coverage of the Mixica -- the whole volcano bit at the end was too rushed, it would've been good to get a bit more flavor of the Mixica culture.
I was also jarred by the "tabernacle" bit, that jumped out too much. (I actually didn't know what a tabernacle was -- or had forgotten, anyway -- so I found its mention interesting... but it didn't fit the story well.)
I thought OSC handled all the different characters well. He didn't try to cram all the characters from books 1-5 in -- the ones that showed up were well used. (Though Taleswapper seemed to just show up to so as to remind us that he was older but still alive.)
Anyway, yeah, I liked the book a lot, and it's got me liking the Alvin series again.
Posted by greensong Rose (Member # 5590) on :
I'm glad Taleswapper did show up, though. I actually started wondering about him half way through the book, and I was so happy when he finally showed. I wish he'd stayed longer. Maybe he will be in Master Alvin...?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
One continuity issue that troubles me is that Alvin was having some trouble with the fine detail of repair and disease. I expect yellow fever is a virus and I know that is small but wasn't Authur Stuarts DNA and Davy Crockets nack just as small a place? Also the Lung Repair should not have been such a problem if he previously rebuilt Calvin's in the space of moments. I know this creates tension, and I can see how having it might make the characters seem more human but it seeems like Alvin is losing some of his power to make the story more suspenseful. If oxygen in the blood was an issue then Alvin could have held the baby's blood oxygen at whatever level was needed, or he could stop Margret from putting out the chemicals that cause labor. Many baby's were lost in those times but I felt that there was backtracking on this issue. I liked the growth of the Red Prophet and the look into Mexico, I believe it was Loius La'Moure who pointed out in one of his stories that the American Indian way of life would have had to face the expanding Aztec power within a hundred years whether the white man came or not. I know the parralles between Alvin and Joseph Smith and I find it interesting that Alvin has seemed agnostic throughout. Many of the "revealed" practices of the Mormons could easily be discovered by Alvin, the Word of Wisdom, about what foods are good and bad, what drugs do to the body and what practices are healthy could be discovered. It is clear that Alvin has pinched himself severely by not using Making for himself, if for no other reason then the simple fact that more practice is better. However it is unclear to me how the next logical step, the eventual death of Alvin, can take place in light of his power. Why should they get in court battles to obstruct finders when Alvin could alter their nacks or make hexes to hide or mask identities? How could Makepeace leave a plow in his will that he did not possess and that had been denied him in court? Why wouldn't Alvin's greatful followers just pay the law off or better yet why not just make a plow of gold to give them without the living properties. It is silly to die for lack of coins. Alvin could place the most powerful people in the United States in his debt with his healing abilities and access to the visions of the Tabernacle, a rail head at the Crystal City could open the whole river. Historically the city of Nuavoo was a threat to the big money people in St Loius and other river crossing cities because it grew so fast and was so prosperous, however no such river crossing is possible in the stories so the threat is eliminated, it is not a war about who will open the west, it is about river traffic. With River boats and Railroad, Alvin will have money and therefore government support. I will look forward to how the Native Americans will prepare for the eventual opening of the west. I hope it is a massive polical wrangle that gives them enough power in the senate and house to control how land is developed and where people move to. Perhaps an agreed price for land that will finance the tribal efforts. Also it would be nice to see the Buffalo saved in some way and worked as a reasource by the tribes. I wonder what is happening on the west coast? Well enough for a first post I think!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
BC, you might want to look at my noise thread. I think I can accept the difference between healing Calvin and the baby because with Calvin he had to infuse strength into an existing structure. With the baby, he had to make structures that had not yet formed, and which he did not necessarily know how to form. Of course it gets into the issue of how early the baby was, which we don't know.
Also, the hexery can backfire in that they may have used charms to keep a baby viable who would not have otherwise survived the first trimester. Recall Calvin's experiments in Napoleon's court. Doing the equivalent of a fog making trick with blood oxygen could cause the bends or something.
Didn't read the Daniel boone story. One of these days I'll got through and figure out where to find it. But with Arthur, he didn't necessarily have to change his DNA. He could have changed some protein synthesizers (ribosomes). Since the finders cachet was keratin tissues, and Alvin was making the most minimal changes possible. I haven't read it in six months so I'm not sure.
A tip: it's hard to read when you don't break up your text into paragraphs. But welcome to the board.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"However it is unclear to me how the next logical step, the eventual death of Alvin, can take place in light of his power."
I think it's likely that Calvin will do something to oppose him -- perhaps involving enchanting bullets.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I think it's largely a matter of scale, Bean Counter. DNA segments are much larger than the most virions. Yellow fever virions are 40-60 nm -- really small. A DNA segment long enough to actually code for something would be far bigger (likely 100-10,000 nm). Besides, he had something to copy in the case of the DNA -- his own! He could see the virions, but was afraid of what would happen if he just told 'em to break apart. (It's good he was cautious! It would be fairly harmless with virions, but potentially fatal with bacteria!)
The chemicals that cause labor are proteins, so maybe somewhere in the range of 10-200 nm? Don't know for those enzymes in particular. But simply removing those proteins wouldn't stop labor anyway; you need OTHER chemicals to stop the process, if it's far enough along. Anyway, for Alvin to determine which chemicals to interfere with would require abilities he certainly doesn't have -- and the consequences of an error could be fatal. No way he would risk it, even if he had an inkling.
As far as keeping oxygen in the blood, first of all, now we are talking WAY smaller. Two atoms, instead of thousands and thousands!
And just how is Alvin supposed to keep enough oxygen in the baby's blood without functioning lungs? We have lungs because they WORK, efficiently, to get oxygen into the blood and carbon dioxide out. I can't think of any method that Alvin could have possibly contrived that would come close to doing the trick.
There are huge differences between a preemie's lungs and an adult's, elasticity and a semi-liquid coating called surfactant being the most important. These are NOT simple or minor differences, and figuring out how to compensate for them took modern science, that CAN see things far smaller than Alvin could (and without the pressure of "my baby is dying, right this second!") many decades, even after the actual problem was understood.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I was glad to see such well thought our replies to my questions.
It is clear that the extent of Alvins abilities is not as great as it could be. With more experimenting and practice he could likely do the things I envision, but as you point out doing it as a baby lays dying is not the same thing. Alvin's vow seems to block him from practicing as much as Calvin and Arthur Stuart even and may lead them to catch him in certain areas.
I have always thought of Alvin's nack as going right to the sub atomic since he has changed iron into gold, therefore I do not think any of the possible solutions is beyond him if he hunts them systematically. After all spotting a virus in racing blood must be quite difficult, but on a drop in a dish it might be accomplished more easily.
In continutity, there is a point in Alvin Journeyman when Calvin thinks that Alvin is a Scientist and he, Calvin is an artist. Then in Heartfire Calvin thinks of himself as a Scientist rather. It is curious but Calvin does seem to experiment more and might gain more skill by trial and error.
I find it interesting that Calvin has come to be such a liar that he literally cannot seem to speak truth. The question is does he know he is lying or is it a compulsion that alters his perception of events as well as his description?
It would be nice if the next book jumped over some of the bickering to come, to some sort of significant future, like the onset of the war or the peek of Alvin's power both as a Maker and a Leader of men.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I just finished the book this weekend.
I will agree with plaid on this point:
quote: I was also jarred by the "tabernacle" bit, that jumped out too much. (I actually didn't know what a tabernacle was -- or had forgotten, anyway -- so I found its mention interesting... but it didn't fit the story well.)
I felt that part of it was very "forced". Although we know this is a thinly disguised fictional representation of the Mormon story, up to then it had been pretty subtle to those not familiar with that story (despite the cover art that looks just like the SLC Temple). I knew what a tabernacle is -- but I don't know that the term was used very normally by people at that point in time.
Farmgirl
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Bean Counter, he was not able to change one atom at a time from iron to gold, only large clusters. He simply cannot see/deal with things on that scale. I don't think more practice is going to help, but hey, that's my opinion.
Farmgirl, I agree. It was disconcerting.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I disagree Rikva, you cannot change alot of iron into alot of gold until you can change one atom of iron into gold. The change has to take place at the atomic level to take place at all.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
By any technology we understand? Absolutely! Using Alvin's powers? Clearly not.
There were several times when his attempts to do things tiny bit by tiny bit failed miserably; but as soon as he did large clusters, worked perfectly. Remember, to Alvin, the little pieces are much like the roaches or anything else -- he TELLS them what to do. The rules of science clearly only apply in a very limited sense.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
have not read Crystal City yet grrrrrr Stupid libray didn't have it and claimed they couldn't get it. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Is the word "tabernacle" used most by Mormons, or are there other faiths that also use it?
I wonder if the use of "tabernacle" is a case of OSC using language that's familiar to him, and not realizing how strange it might sound to others.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
plaid, do you mean currently? historically? To me, it's a translation (and one I almost never use) of the Mishkan.
A search finds: some independent tabernacles, Wiccan tabernacles, Baptist Tabernacles, a concert venue. It's apparently been the name for some type of Catholic receptacle since the Middle Ages, a township in New Jersey, there's the fairly well-known choir . . .
The majority of uses of the word are unquestionably religious. But the Crystal City was not portrayed as a religious community -- at least, not until that word was introduced.
Posted by esl (Member # 3143) on :
plaid, the tabernacle was the chest that held the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament, from what I remember. I know it's in the OT. So Catholics and Protestants should know about it, probably Jews too.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*blinks* HUH? Never heard that usage of "tabernacle" before. See, that's the trouble I have because I think of these things using non-English terms. I would call that the Aron (usually translated "ark"), or more specifically, the Aron ha'Brit ("Ark of the Covenant").
The Mishkan (Tabernacle) was the original building that housed the Aron. Perhaps that's the origin of this alternate (well, to me, anyway) usage of the word?
[ December 10, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by kateydidnt (Member # 6013) on :
I finished reading Crystal City over the weekend and wanted to say something and so I joined the forum. There was something odd about the use of "tabernacle." Like others I have seen posting here, I found it jarring. Although I am not quite sure what to make of it.
However, that isn't what I wanted to talk about in this post. Mostly I was disappointed in the way it jumped right into the center of things. I guess I should explain a little background. I attended the BYU Science Fiction and Fantasy symposium in early 2003 and OSC gave a reading. What he read was Alvin's first encounter with Jim Bowie, how he found Abe and Coz on the river and Arthur Stuart's first interactions with the slaves they eventually freed. It was very humorous and I was looking forward to reading the rest of the encounters. Oh well, the story was just as good without it, but it was a disappointment all the same. Since I am new here, I think I will just be lurking for a while to get a feel for everyone, but this is just a hello along with my above comments.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, kateydidnt . Cute screenname!
There are two short stories that come chronologically between Heartfire and Crystal City. Sounds like the reading you heard was one of them.
More on the short stories here.
Posted by mikeh112 (Member # 6016) on :
About 2 months ago I started the Alive Maker series and I finished the Crystal City about 3 weeks ago. With that being said I had absolutly no idea that the story had any basis in the morman religion. I guess that is a good thing, however now that I know this it leaves me with uneasy feelings about a story which just until 20 minutes ago, I couldn't find fault with. Hell, I don't know how I feel right now, but unfortunatly I do feel different. Anybody else see where I am coming from?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Mikeh, you been punk'd! j/k
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
First of all, I preface my comments with the following: I just finished the story, so it's fresh in my mind. and I am devoutly LDS so any comments I make are going to be coming from my perspective.
As far as the tabernacle debate goes my thoughts are that the story of "exodus" from Barcy was filled with Old Testament similiarities to the children of Israel, including crossing water twice. Particularly for me the crossing of the Mizzippy with a wall of water on one side, I could only picture the Cecil B. De Mille version in my mind. Also, the tabernacle is to me as much the place that the Israelites used to store the ark as it is a place where a momon choir sings. Therefore for it to be referenced as such wasn't disturbing to me at all.
Personally although there are the obvious comparisons of characters to historical figures (Alvin, Measure, Mike Fink), I think it's more like what OSC did in "Saints" where he made composite fictional characters that had the combined experiences of many individuals for quite a few of the others. As a student of LDS church history, I don't see any direct correlations for Peggy (other than being Alvin/Joseph's wife), Arthur, Verily, or anyone else off the top of my head.
Lastly, and I should probably put these first so as not to end on a sour note, the thing that I didn't like about the story was it's overly fast pace through certain sections. The trip to Mexico City wasn't nearly fleshed out enough for me. Nor was the birth of Vigor and final gathering to the Crystal City. I had my worries when I first picked up the book and saw how thin it was, although I think some it might have to do with my general knowledge of the gathering to Nauvoo (Crystal City).
Finally, if anyone could confirm that the inside cover map has incorrectly placed Crystal City on the western shore of the Mizzippy, I'd greatly appreciate it. (Nauvoo is most definitely on the East in Illinois, not on the West in Iowa)
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:About 2 months ago I started the Alive Maker series and I finished the Crystal City about 3 weeks ago. With that being said I had absolutly no idea that the story had any basis in the morman religion. I guess that is a good thing, however now that I know this it leaves me with uneasy feelings about a story which just until 20 minutes ago, I couldn't find fault with. Hell, I don't know how I feel right now, but unfortunatly I do feel different. Anybody else see where I am coming from?
Well, are you feeling more unaccountably Mormon than you were twenty minutes ago? You'd be surprised how many stories are based off the Bible, and I hear that book has an even BIGGER following.
(In all seriousness, a writer's inspiration is going to come from the things that touch his life the strongest. In this case, as in many others, that inspiration happens to be his religion, for Card. However, the reason why we like books is how they touch US when we read them. Sometimes that's the same inspiration the writer was feeling, sometimes it's completely different. It doesn't mean it has to either effect or manifest itself the same way in us.
And, while people have been oppressed, persuaded, pressured and preached into another religion, I really don't think anyone has ever been hornswaggled into one.)
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Ralphie,
Didn't you know that "Hornswaggling" is one of the first things taught to new Missionaries before they are unleashed on the unsuspecting public?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Hornswaggling. Hmmm.... <Checks dictionary.> Ok.
<Relieved this isn't an Onanism thread.>
Posted by Grasshopper (Member # 1055) on :
I think Arthur Stuart parallels Brigham Young, and making him the half-black son of a slave is OSC's "dig" at Brigham Young's racist attitudes.
Verily Cooper seems to parallel Oliver Cowdery. Calvin may parallel William Smith, or perhaps Sidney Rigdon.
I wasn't disappointed that Alvin tells Jim Bowie that he won't be welcome in the "tabernacle" -- Alvin is learning wisdom: to be less trusting and to recognize that a community can be too open.
So, who does Jim Bowie parallel? Maybe John C. Bennett? If he develops much influence in Furrowspring, then it's a fit, IMO.
Also, the tension between Alvin and Peggy fits well with Joseph and Emma Smith. Their marriage had its share of tense moments, with Joseph secretly practicing polygamy.
I was somewhat disappointed in the scene of the naming of the "tabernacle", too. It seemed to me that Card is trying to "disguise" the Nauvoo temple by using a related Biblical word.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
OK, Grasshopper, those are the best thought out correlaries I've seen for those characters, I buy that.
But how doesn't the tabernacle fit in with the children of Israel references.
And Papa Moose... and respectively
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
peterh - Fool! Don't give away your arcane secrets!
Moose - I'm not buying it anymore. I think you want this to be about onanism.
You sick, hornswaggling pervie.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The idea that the cover of Crystal City looks like the Salt Lake Temple is just flat off base. It looks like a Catholic Cathedral and a mosque. By the Salt Lake Temple is a building called the Tabernacle. It is where the Tabernacle Choir broadcasts from. It was named for the Israelite Tabernacle, but it's use is much more secular.
No secret rites take place there, though there is a baptistry the same as at any "mormon" church building. The use of the 'observatory" described in the book is more similar to what happens in the Temple. I think OSC was backing off from using the word "temple", but may not have succeeded. Well, hopefully it will wind up just being an artifact of the "women's religion". Something common to OSC's worlds and much speculative fiction is a separate "women's religion".
I still think any attempt at historical parallels are unfounded. John C. Bennett only accomplished what he did because Joseph Smith trusted him. If you want OSC's literal take on the Nauvoo period, try reading Saints .
Up to this book, Alvin has been more concerned with getting people up to his level than taking his level further out. He doesn't "practice" his knack, he just uses it when the need arises.
Posted by xymox (Member # 4494) on :
I just finished Crystal City last week and absolutely loved it. After dragging myself through Heartfire, it was definitely a breath of fresh air!
I thought Card did an excellent job of bringing together an entertaining story without going off on too many tangents, as he did with Heartfire. Heck, Calvin managed to actually be fairly entertaining without dragging the story down with his "I could care less" attitude.
I also wanted to address those who insist that Alvin is Joseph Smith. While there are some distinct similarities between Alvin and Joseph, I believe that Card has created a truly unique character in Alvin and that any comparisons between him and Joseph Smith are really only superficial.
I think that those who insist that Alvin's life is a metaphor for Joseph's are really selling themselves short. I believe that Card simply took a few aspects of Joseph's life and injected them into Alvin's (his leg operation, being jailed on trumped up charges, etc.), but beyond these few similarities, I think Alvin is a completely different person from Joseph, and I find it laughable that people are finding similarities between other Alvin Maker characters and early Mormon church leaders (such as Arthur Stuart being Brigham Young, etc.).
In short, while it's fun to try to compare characters with folks in real life, I think it's more fun just to enjoy Cards work for what it is--a great piece of fiction about a wonderful fictional character.
I happen to be LDS, and am definitely not trying to bring down those people who are looking for similarities between the Alvin Maker events and the early Mormon church. I just think that perhaps we're reading too much into Card's work and missing the point that Alvin is really an "everyman" who is simply trying to discover his purpose in life.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I think that those who insist that Alvin's life is a metaphor for Joseph's are really selling themselves short."
Like, um, Orson Scott Card, who has frequently aired the theory that the Alvin Maker series is an allegory about the life of Joseph Smith?
But I guess we'll never really know. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Well I think Alvin is to Joseph Smith as Aslan is to the Historical Christ. I read the entire chronicals of Narnia when I was a child and never recognized that I was reading a Christian Metaphor. Later it became obvious, but I suppose it is possible to ignore it at a first go.
Come to think of it there are many ways OSC compairs with CS Lewis.
BC
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Did he really use the word allegory? I think the problem is folks trying to come up with parallels.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I've changed my mind about the word "tabernacle". Though now I think it's indicative of the seeds of the city's destruction. Maybe Alvin's enemies will realize they can't defeat him by making him look bad, but they could make him look like he's trying to start a religion and that is about the only thing that would give him a motive to prove his mortality.
Posted by xymox (Member # 4494) on :
Here is what OSC stated in an email to a friend of mine:
"Alvin Maker stories draw from the life of Joseph Smith and have a few other Mormon references"
Obviously this would account for why there are many similarities between Alvin Maker and Joseph Smith. However, for each similarity, I can give you a thousand differences between the two. The problem is that everyone discounts the dissimilarities and only focuses on the few parallels that exist in the stories.
Again, I find it more fun to just enjoy the stories for what they are--fantastic fantasy. Sure, it's fun to find parallels too, but I've noticed that some readers become troubled by this rather than intrigued...so why not just enjoy the stories for what they are?
Posted by macmhagan (Member # 6058) on :
Thanks jeniwren for posting on being "jolted out" of the series. Since I know nothing of Mormon history, I actually wasn't jolted until I came here looking for answers about where the Abe Lincoln and Jim Bowie characters came from and to my surprise I learn that Alvin is parrallel (sp?) to Joseph Smith.
I am not too worried about missing the two short stories that introduced new characters, because Crystal City stands on its own.
I am worried about the Mormon parrallel. I love many of the parrallels, but I always imagined Alvin as one of the reason the world is different. Because magic is real in the Alvin Maker series, so many things are different in that world from this world (e.g. westward expansion is halted for now by virtue of the FOG). Well, since Alvin is so powerful in magic the logic would be that he would be a very different person than any that exists in our 19th century past. Maybe that doesn't make sense...I just thought that Alvin's story would be something completely new (like the whole idea of climbing into a forge and creating a golden plow).
BTW...Arthur isn't Brigham Young...Calvin is (my thoughts at least Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Just finished... Same old, same old, in my opinion.
Alvin is so so so annoying - a passive-agressive holier-than-thou type whose heroism only stems from the fact that nature has given him the ability to do anything he wants and from the fact that the villains he contrasts with pursue evil for no rational reason. The man's a goody-two-shoes, and so is almost everyone he becomes friends with! I keep wishing someone would take Alvin out and make Calvin the main character, but it isn't to be I think.
I also didn't like the not-so-subtle reminder that this story was about Mormonism. Suddenly, it felt like OSC was trying to tell us that the Mormons are the Makers, and hence that all us other non-LDS folks are unwittingly with the Unmaker.
[ December 30, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Actually, now that I think about it, forget Calvin too... the rest of the series should drop all the main characters and instead focus solely on Papa Moose as he travels America, dishing up justice Moose-style.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I have to say that I think Alvin could do more and should enjoy it. His childhood promise never to do it for himself seems to be a bit foolish now that so many people depend on him. He should make county line hexes that confuse Finders, Create beutiful objects to make the town wealthy enough to by off politicians and generally go on the offensive.
There is something to the "Passive/Agressive" remark, you cannot always wait and take the first blow before you fight back. Not when the first blow can be leathal. i.e. 9-11
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Stupid libray didn't have it and claimed they couldn't get it. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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and ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
respectively